How do I copy 1Password v4 data from one computer to 1Password v3 on another computer? (Manual sync)

syncrasy
syncrasy
Community Member
edited November 2014 in Mac

I used to have 1Password v3 on both my desktop and laptop. I used to manually sync them by copying the 1password.agilekeychain file from one computer to the other (in Library>Application Support...). But now I have 1Password v4 on my desktop (Mavericks OS 10.9.5) and it appears that the "agilekeychain" protocol is not used by v4. How can I manually copy the data from my desktop to my laptop now? (I can't update the laptop to 1Password v4 because it's running Snow Leopard OS 10.6.8.)

Comments

  • thightower
    thightower
    Community Member

    @syncrasy‌

    It ( .agilekeychain format) is still used by 1Password 4 and 1Password 5.

    What you would need to do is enable syncing on the 1Password 4 install and then choose folder. This folder can be where ever you desire it to remain. Documents etc.

    Once you choose sync 1Password 4 or 1Password 5 will create the keychain file inside that folder. From there you are free to continue syncing the way you are accustomed to doing. Its best to copy that keychain out of your special sync folder and not actually move or alter the one inside your sync folder.

    Just so you know you could use Dropbox syncing to accomplish this task effortlessly and avoiding manual syncing. But sounds like you have a working sync solution all ready in place that works for you.

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member
    edited November 2014

    Thanks, thightower. So just so I understand... If the agilekeychain format is still used in 1Password 4, why don't I see it in Application Support>1Password? Is it implemented differently in 1Password 4 than in 1Password 3? (I don't remember setting up a sync folder when I was using just 1Password 3; I simply copied/pasted the agilekeychain file from one computer's Application Support folder to the other's folder.)

    And why am I creating a sync folder in the first place if I'm using copy/paste to get the data to the laptop? Am I syncing the desktop to itself? Either this is very weird or I'm not understanding the concept.

  • thightower
    thightower
    Community Member
    edited November 2014

    @syncrasy‌

    Background :

    1Password 4 uses a new format for the actual database inside 1Password 4. The keychain design has been moved to the sync mechanism only. In 1Password 3 the keychain was used in the support folder. You then moved it to accommodate syncing. In 1Password 4 the sqlite database is internal and then the keychain does the external syncing. The keychain only gets created when you enable syncing.

    Answer:

    Yes you could use the desktop as the sync folder, thats your choice. If you just updated to 1Password 4 and have a keychain already on your Desktop then yes by all means use it. 1Password 4 will pull all that data inside the keychain into its internal database. That keychain thats on your desktop would be the one to copy and transport to the other device for syncing and so forth.

    1Password 4 has an internal checker now that tells if its sync keychain has been lost and or moved. You can set the folder where ever you want it to be. But due to this mechanism built into 1Password to watch over its keychain. You will need to copy it. To a USB for example, then move it to the new device and then copy it from the USB over the existing location on the Macbook. This would prevent both copies from throwing errors etc about loosing its sync container and then reverse it to move data back to the other Mac.

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member
    edited November 2014

    Thanks again. I think I'm understanding this. (By the way, when I asked, "Am I syncing the desktop to itself?" I actually meant to say "Am I syncing the desktop computer to itself.") Obviously the answer is "No." As I now understand it, the sync folder I create (e.g. "1Password sync folder") can potentially serve as a sync master for 1Password installations on other devices via a 3rd party sync software program, or it could just sit there as a repository for my keychain and never ever be used for automated syncing. It's sort of like a perpetually-updated data backup. Do I have that right? (Though, curiously, the agilekeychain file's modification date doesn't change after syncs. Do I have to undo and re-establish the sync folder to refresh the data?)

    And a related question... Is Wi-fi syncing designed for syncing only to iOS devices? Could it ever be used to sync desktop <-> laptop on a wi-fi network?

  • thightower
    thightower
    Community Member
    edited November 2014

    @syncrasy‌

    Wifi Sync is currently only iOS. There has been a fair amount of interest in the Mac to Mac option but I have seen no details mentioned in the forums. AFAIK its status is still up in the air.

    Yes the sync folder can be used by 3rd party sync solutions. Its not really a supported setup to use those. At least in my understanding.

    The folder can remain setup as long as you need it. Essentially you are indeed syncing from the internal database (sqlite) to the external (keychain).

    Think of it this way.

    The 1Password app has a database (sqlite) it is the King. The keychain is the Kings Knight. That Knight (A) meets another Knight (B) at the round table (sync mechanisms). Knight A passes gold to Knight B in exchange for land. Knight B take stuff back to her Queen (Another instance of 1Password). Knight A takes the stuff back to his King (1Password).

    Maybe a visual representation would help more.

    No you do not have to undo and redo the sync setup it will always been syncing. You can open the sync preferences in 1Password and it will show you the last sync occurrence.

    As to the modification date, the keychain is a group of smaller items and If I recall correctly OS X uses the creation date of the container. If you were to open the keychain. You would see something like this.

    Keychain date:

    Internal dates:

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member

    Thanks again for all of your help. I can now update my laptop with a fresh keychain file. (And now I realize I could have chosen "show package contents" to see the internal dates.)

  • Megan
    Megan
    1Password Alumni

    Hi @syncrasy‌

    I'm so glad to hear that @thightower was able to explain things to you (Tommy, I particularly liked your round table analogy, I might have to steal that one!)

    If you have any further questions or concerns, we're here to help! :)

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member

    I want to revisit this thread...

    Recap: In the past I was running 1Password4 on my MacPro but an older version of 1Password (1Password3) on my Laptop. 1Password3 didn't have the sync folder feature. So I manually copied and pasted the agilekeychain from the MacPro sync folder into the Laptop's 1Password Application Support folder. It was fake sync.

    My circumstances are a bit different now. I now have updated my Laptop with 1Password4, so I want to make sure my Laptop's 1Password4 data is the same as my MacPro's 1Password4 data. With 1Password4 newly installed on the Laptop, and with the computers connected over my wireless network, I now point my Laptop's 1Password4 Sync preference at the MacPro's sync folder. This updates the 1Password4 data on my Laptop with the most current data from the MacPro. Any changes I make to the Laptop are then reflected in the MacPro.

    Two computers. One agilekeychain (for syncing). Seems to work fine. (Although I notice that you have to perform a dummy edit/save for the older 1Password4 database to "ping" the agilekeychain file and slurp up the new data. I can't figure out any other way.)

    So my questions:

    1. Is this an acceptable method of syncing?
    2. Wouldn't this be considered "Mac-to-Mac" syncing?
    3. Is my dummy edit/save necessary?
  • littlebobbytables
    littlebobbytables
    1Password Alumni

    Hi @syncrasy,

    I would actually recommend something slightly different if I may.

    When Folder Sync was written it was actually designed with pen drives in mind. The pen drive is recognised as a removable drive by OS X and 1Password can cope with it being detached from the Mac. If you use Folder Sync over a network share 1Password assumes that location is always going to be available, much like a folder on your local drive as we're not informed any better by OS X. If the share isn't present e.g. you take the laptop away somewhere with you, 1Password will complain as with the exception of 1 removable pen drive, it does expect the sync location to always be present. This holds true for both iCloud and Dropbox because they use some of your hard drive space as a local repository.

    So if you Folder Sync to a pen drive you can pop the pen drive between the two and if the pen drive is present when you open 1Password it will perform a sync.

    What do you think?

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member

    I've experimented a bit with 1Password on the Laptop while unconnected to the Mac Pro over the network (i.e., no access to the sync folder), and so far 1Password has not complained once. It seems to work fine. If 1Password has not complained on my Laptop while disconnected, it seems my method is perfectly fine -- and vastly superior to using a pen (flash?) drive. Is there a hidden issue that I have not encountered?

  • Megan
    Megan
    1Password Alumni

    Hi @syncrasy ,

    I'm glad to hear that Folder Sync is working well for you! When you were experimenting with 1Password, were you changing and updating data? Or merely using 1Password to fill in on websites? I suspect that if you change data, you'll see a warning that 1Password cannot connect to the sync source.

    This is where the potential problem comes in: if you are changing data on one machine, expecting that sync will move that data across the network, and the drive that manages the sync has somehow been disconnected, you will not have access to your updated data on the other machines.

    If your set-up is working well for you, you're welcome to continue using it. :)

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member

    Megan, you're right. My experiment did not involve editing the data. A second experiment in which I edited the data while disconnected created problems. I got a warning about a missing source (the dialog appeared generic, i.e., not from 1Password, but perhaps I missed it). I clicked "ignore." Then 1Password completely crashed -- spinning beach ball, unresponsive. I had to force quit and the error was reported to Apple. If you have the ears of the developers, can you pass on my suggestion that this use case be modified so that the app doesn't crash? Or is this Apple's fault?

    In any case, I think I have a reasonable new workflow:

    1. Disable syncing on the laptop before traveling or disconnecting.
    2. Edit the laptop's 1Password data freely while traveling/disconnected.
    3. On return home, enable syncing from the laptop to the Mac Pro (i.e, choose the sync folder on the Mac Pro)
    4. Select "merge" data with existing data.

    Thoughts?

  • Megan
    Megan
    1Password Alumni

    Hi @syncrasy ,

    Well, I'm sorry to hear that 1Password crashed on you. That's not quite what we expect in that situation.

    I'd like to ask you to create a Diagnostics Report from your Mac:

    https://support.1password.com/diagnostics/mac.html

    Then attach the entire file to an email to us: support+forum@agilebits.com

    Please do not post your Diagnostics Report in the forums, but please do include a link to this thread in your email, along with your forum handle so that we can "connect the dots" when we see your Diagnostics Report in our inbox.

    You should receive an automated reply from our BitBot assistant with a Support ID number. Please post that number here so we can quickly track down the Report and ensure that it is dealt with quickly. :)

    This Report could tell us a bit more about where things got tangled up and hopefully help us resolve that crash.

    In the meantime though, I do think your workaround is reasonable.

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member
    edited September 2015

    Megan,

    I haven't experienced a crash after I discovered my workaround, but I would like to make a functionality request.

    Background: If I forget to do step #1 (disable sync) prior to disconnecting/traveling, I get an error message (as expected) regarding not being able to find my server, followed by a dialog (some time after dismissing several error messages) asking whether I'd like to "fix" or "ignore" the error. The correct answer in this situation is "fix" so that I can change my sync target to "None." But if instead I click "ignore," the dialog doesn't return, and the error messages continue to appear every few seconds (indefinitely). Unfortunately, at this point there is no way to "fix" the sync target in Preferences; the Sync panel is blank. I must force quit 1Password, restart the laptop and patiently wait for the dialog to again offer the fix options.

    My request: Always allow me the ability to fix (i.e., change) my sync target at will, even if I (accidentally or intentionally) chose to ignore the sync problem via the temporary dialog. Never present me with a blank Sync preference panel; that's not good from a usability perspective.

  • Hello @syncrasy,

    I believe you're running 1Password 4, is that correct? So the bad news is as 1Password 4 is no longer in active development there won't be any future modifications made to its codebase.

    Sadly everything you've said still applies to 1Password 5 although we do have an additional warning against use of a network share. All the quirks and issues of the sync location not being available are still present though. Despite the ability to select a network share the entire sync code assumes the location is always present due to how iCloud and Dropbox work. It's not the first time we've tried to improve it and come up blank hence the additional warning in 1Password 5. While we have to accept our portion of the blame some of the complexity might be based on what frameworks we have at our disposal. To try and simulate I turned off Wi-Fi on my Mac, forgetting to disconnect from the network share first and locked up Finder so badly I had to do a hard shutdown to regain any sort of control. It might be it doesn't normally react that badly but I'm not overly keen on testing again to find out.

    Maybe we can encourage the devs to look again but they did investigate recently to see if they could get better notifications like we can with removable drives and their searching didn't yield anything useful but you're also right that it can't lock up the way it does right now. This is way I always strongly advocate a pen/flash drive even though it might seem old school. We'll have to see what can be done.

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member

    Sorry, I'm using 1Password 5 now, so I will start a new thread to avoid confusion. I think the lock up situation is unacceptable, but I don't think a pen drive is a practical solution to the original problem. I'm hoping the developers will delve into this more deeply.

  • I understand and maybe another look from the developers can see an improvement. I realise I'm repeating myself but I only suggest the pen/flash drive with good intent. There are many facets to this role and while one of them is reporting bugs and recording feature requests another is doing our best by our users and their data. Based on everything I know about Folder Sync I would use a pen drive to minimise the potential sync related issues, not just networking ones. That's just my belief though.

  • syncrasy
    syncrasy
    Community Member
    edited September 2015

    I appreciate your efforts. It may very well be that a pen drive would address network and sync problems; it just isn't (in my opinion) a practical or convenient option. Network folder/server syncing works perfectly fine -- just not when the user makes an error. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think a software solution to the "missing" server/sync issue is unreasonable or technically impossible. In fact, I think the current method of using notifications that give the user the option to fix the problem is the right approach, it's just only 90% usable because it doesn't gracefully guide the user out of a user error. A few usability tweeks and coding changes could make it 100% usable.

  • Drew_AG
    Drew_AG
    1Password Alumni

    Hi @syncrasy,

    It appears that you've ended up with 2 different threads about the same thing at this point, and I'm about to reply to your other discussion on this topic. To avoid confusion, I'll close this one, and you can reply to the other one if necessary. Thanks! :)

This discussion has been closed.