Multiple vaults can't be synced with iCloud? [Correct, iCloud only syncs Primary]

edited August 12 in iOS

Hello,

now with 1Password 6 on Mac, I started to use multiple vaults. I added a "work" vault and moved everything work related to it. I need to sync that between my work desktop Mac, my notebook and my iPhone. Unfortunately that seems to be impossible. Or at least I didn't find a solution to do so.

Normally I sync via iCloud. So my primary vault is currently synced with that.
For some reason, only one vault can be synced via iCloud, which is really unfortunate. So what other options do I have?

  1. Dropbox. That is out of the question for various reasons I don't want to elaborate on.
  2. Foldersync. Works between Macs (via GoogleDrive for example) but not between macs and iOS devices
  3. WiFi Sync does not even appear on iOS (or any other device) if you already have another sync service set up.

So what am I gonna do now? Sync everything via Wifi? Not gonna happen! That is destined to fail sooner or later.
Sync via DropBox? Ain't no option either.

So, right now I have no way to sync my work vault onto my phone. All I could do is to merge all the data back into my primary vault. But than I ask myself what was the point of this feature in the first place?

I use 1Password since version 3.0, and I asked countless times to have a sync via WebDav. If you are afraid to confuse your userbase, make it a pro feature and put it behind 5 confirmation messages, but please give me an option to sync all my devices via one method. That would also give me the chance to host my data myself, so I don't have to trust some company with it.

Right now, the sync situation is a total mess in my opinion.

If there is any solution to this situation, please let me know. I really like the software and I don't want to switch to anything else.

Best wishes,
Thomas


1Password Version: 6.0
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided
Sync Type: Not Provided

«13

Comments

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    Hi @thomashempel

    Thanks for taking the time to write in. Dropbox would be the recommended solution here, but if you are unable to use it for whatever reason there may be another solution. It should be possible to sync both via Folder Sync and WiFi sync, if you are running 1Password 6 both for Mac and iOS. Please check out these guides:

    Wi-Fi Sync | 1Password 5 for Mac

    Sync over Wi-Fi | 1Password for iOS

    We don't have any plans at this point to add any other sync methods beyond Dropbox, iCloud, and WiFi at this point, and I wouldn't expect to see that change in the near future. Also as iCloud does not support sharing data between Apple IDs that makes it more difficult to spend development resources on adding multiple vault support for it. Most folks who want multiple vaults want to be able to share vaults.

    Another possible solution would be 1Password for Teams, especially if you are using 1Password for work.

    I hope that helps!

    Ben

  • Hi Ben,

    unfortunately, that doesn't help me very much. As I said, the option to sync via Wi-Fi is only available when I disable all other sync methods. That would imply, that I have to actively sync my data. From what I understand the WiFi sync is not automatic. I have to enable the WiFi Server in order to sync. So I have to think about that, when I add anything on my phone. What could possibly go wrong? ;-) My mac at home is by definition not in the same WiFi as my mac at work. So how do they sync. Is my phone the carrying container? Now I have to remember to sync on two sides. Do I have to start the app on my phone to sync?
    Sync and backups are the two things I don't want to start manually. They should be as automatic as possible. You will forget it, and it will always bite you in the most inopportune moment. ;-)

    And what am I supposed to do with 1Password for teams? I'm not a team. All I want is to automatically sync all my vaults, to all my devices without the need of having a Dropbox account.

    I don't want to sound mean or anything. As I said, I really like the software and it's probably one of the most programs on my machines. It just make me sad, that I can't use new features, that could be very helpful too me.

    Anyway, maybe this is not a problem. Right now I sync my primary vault via iCloud to all devices, and the work vault via folder sync between my macs. So I don't have any work related stuff on my phone. Could also be an advantage. :-D

    Best wishes,
    Thomas

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member
    edited January 2016

    Thomas,

    As I said, the option to sync via Wi-Fi is only available when I disable all other sync methods.

    On iOS, yes, but the Mac can both Folder Sync and WiFi sync. In your situation you'd likely need to WiFi sync the mobile device with one of the Macs, and then sync the Macs with each other via Folder Sync + your chosen 3rd party utility to transport the data between them.

    From what I understand the WiFi sync is not automatic.

    It is automatic in that when your 1Password for Mac with WiFi Sync Server enabled is open and unlocked and you then open and unlock 1Password for iOS on the same WiFi network they will sync. You don't have to manually go into the settings and hit 'sync now' each time.

    But indeed, it is not nearly as automated or convenient as Dropbox or iCloud.

    And what am I supposed to do with 1Password for teams? I'm not a team.

    I only mention it because it fulfills the requirements you've outlined:

    All I want is to automatically sync all my vaults, to all my devices without the need of having a Dropbox account.

    You are more than welcome to be a team of one, but it is pretty rare we've found for people to exist in silos. Especially if you are using 1Password for work, you may eventually find there are 1Password items you'd like to be able to share with a colleague or client.

    I don't want to sound mean or anything.

    No offense taken. I understand you feel that there isn't currently an ideal solution to this problem. I'm simply offering what the currently possible workarounds are.

    Sync and backups are the two things I don't want to start manually.

    Personally I agree with you. Unfortunately when backups were automatic we received a lot of complaints about the amount of storage space we were using. Sync we make as automated as possible while maintaining a high level of security.

    iCloud, having deep hooks into the operating system, will naturally be the most automated.

    Thanks.

    Ben

  • On iOS, yes, but the Mac can both Folder Sync and WiFi sync.

    Come on, please stop this "advices". It getting boring.

    Compared to Mail it's like you told your users again and again to sync their Mails for mobile devices via local Wifi sync and have to find an own sync solution to sync their Mails from Mac to Mac, because you had bad experience with a RFC standard (WebDAV) "100" years ago in Mobile Me time decade.

    How long do we have Imap-Servers? This works for Terrabytes of data! Even WebDAV.

    Dropbox, iCloud, 1Password for Teams doesn't have any RFC for self hosting. Also I'm not a team. I only want to have my passwords on my devices like with my Mails on every device. With my own server. This feature request is far away to be complicated or technical impossible.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    Thanks for the feedback, @webdav_sync. We don't have a 1st party solution for that at this point, and I'm not aware of any plans for such a thing. I can definitely pass along your vote to our development team, though. :)

    Ben

  • Thank you. One additional note for your developers. Many Groupware services syncs their calendar, todo and contact entries through CalDAV and CardDAV. For many years. Apple uses them, Google, ...

    Both, CalDAV and CardDAV, are WebDAV. I never heard this is technical impossible or not doable. Every Raspberry with Owncloud installed can handle this without any single performance hit. I've 100x more calendar entries than 1Password entries and I do a full sync of my calendar, not only last 4 weeks.

    What is the technical difference between a 1Password and a Calendar or Contact entry?
    A surename in a contact is like the username in 1Password. Even in my contacts I have URL fields. Like on 1Password. And so on and so on. Technically exactly the same.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    The main technical difference I can think of is that everything is encrypted. I couldn't say how much of a difference that may or may not make.

    Ben

  • Hi there,
    Sorry in advance, I might be too straight forward...
    That "solution" you've provided sounds like scratching a right ear with left foot.
    This "feature" such an annoying disadvantage.
    I have created two vaults, one for myself, another one for my wife. So who will take priority to sync with iCloud?

    Very disappointed customer.

  • I had a mentor many years ago who always stressed that you should choose your tools to achieve your goals, not pick your tools and let them constrain them. Dropbox is the former.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    I have created two vaults, one for myself, another one for my wife. So who will take priority to sync with iCloud?

    @ZeoSonE: It doesn't matter. iCloud simply doesn't allow sharing data between accounts. Maybe that will change in the future.

    I had a mentor many years ago who always stressed that you should choose your tools to achieve your goals, not pick your tools and let them constrain them. Dropbox is the former.

    I can't say I've hear it put that way, but it certainly makes sense. After all, that's why I use Dropbox Sync: it let's me share vaults (and all sorts of other data) with other people (and platforms). Wi-Fi Sync isn't always a good option for me because I'm not always on a LAN, and iCloud just isn't everywhere I need it to be. I guess I'm pragmatic. All are great, but it's a matter of the right tool for the job.

  • @brenty I don't want to share anything, I just want to sync my both vaults over iCloud, thats it.
    Without using any third parties or wifi.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    @ZeoSonE,

    iCloud is a 3rd party.

    You can sync your vault to your iCloud, and your wife can sync her vault to her iCloud account. But iCloud does not allow you to access hers or her to access yours.

    Ben

  • I think the problem still didn't came through.

    It's not about sharing! The problem is, that you can only sync one vault via iCloud.

    Again:

    • I don't want to share my vaults!
    • I don't want to manually sync my vaults
    • All I want is to sync all my vaults with one method to all my devices. And this is simply not possible as of now. At least if I don't want to create a DropBox account.

    You made your point clear, that you don't have any plans to provide a solution anytime soon (or ever). So, that is at least a statement. It's disappointing from a customer standpoint, but a clear statement nonetheless.

  • I would like to add that I'm really disappointed about the sync situation as well.

    Although I use dropbox for non-critical data I would never use it to share anything privacy related. WiFi works at home but only between one Mac and multiple iOS devices - not multiple Macs. iCloud works only for the primary vault.

    But instead of fixing these problems first by implementing a more flexible/general sync approach (WebDAV?) you spend development/engineering time of 1Password for teams.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    @thomashempel,

    Correct. At present you'd need a Dropbox or 1Password for Teams account to do that.

    The only reason I mentioned sharing is that sharing is the reason most people want multiple vaults. Because iCloud cannot do sharing, most folks that are using it do not need to sync multiple vaults to it. I understand you are not one of those folks.

    @viswiz,

    iCloud isn't inherently more secure than Dropbox when it comes to storing 1Password data.

    Is it safe to sync my data over the cloud?

    We're not going to be building WebDAV as a sync solution in the forseeable future. Some of the reasons why have been outlined here:

    [Feature Request] Sync any location (or add support for Owncloud) - AgileBits Support Forum

    I know these are not the answers you folks were hoping for but I hope that my answers provide some explanation for the current state of things and the rationale for our suggested solutions.

    Ben

  • @bwoodruff I don't think iCloud is more secure than dropbox. In both cases data is stored in a 3rd party place. But in my opinion the available syncing options should have feature parity at least. Currently dropbox is your only cross platform multi vault sync solution. iCloud lacks multi vault support. WiFi sync supports only a single Mac and requires all devices to be within the same network.

    Maybe WebDAV doesn't fit into 1Passwords syncing engine. But I don't insist on using WebDAV. It's just a common solution to similar problems and the first thing that came to my mind because of my own Synology DS NAS with WebDAV enabled. I would be happy to use any other solution as long as it supports all available vaults with more or less unlimited devices without "sharing" my vaults in a public/3rd party place.

    Kai

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    Kai,

    iCloud lacks multi vault support

    Correct, and I explained why in my last post. Unless / until Apple enables sharing across Apple IDs for CloudKit data I don't see multiple vault support for iCloud moving up the priority list. Even if Apple does not make this change it is possible that we will add multiple vault support at some point, but admittedly it is not high on the priority list.

    I would be happy to use any other solution as long as it supports all available vaults with more or less unlimited devices without "sharing" my vaults in a public/3rd party place.

    Sounds like you want 1Password for Teams. :)

    If you haven't already, I'd recommend checking out Dave's post here.

    Thanks!

    Ben

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    All I want is to sync all my vaults with one method to all my devices. And this is simply not possible as of now. At least if I don't want to create a DropBox account.

    @thomashempel: It's in beta and not yet supported on final Windows and Android releases, but you should definitely check out 1Password for Teams. It will make all of this possible. :)

    @bwoodruff I don't think iCloud is more secure than dropbox. In both cases data is stored in a 3rd party place.

    @viswiz: Indeed. And it's important to note that your 1Password data is end-to-end encrypted, so 1Password simply doesn't depend on the sync service to protect your data. 1Password is secure by design, not by chance.

    But in my opinion the available syncing options should have feature parity at least. Currently dropbox is your only cross platform multi vault sync solution. iCloud lacks multi vault support. WiFi sync supports only a single Mac and requires all devices to be within the same network.

    Thanks! But to be clear, the whole point of Wi-Fi Sync is that it's completely local, as some folks don't want to send their data over the internet, regardless of encryption. I hope we'll be able to support iCloud on other platforms someday, and also support multiple vaults. But this is something that just works with Dropbox, as part of its ability to share between accounts, and because it is file-based. iCloud simply works differently.

    I would be happy to use any other solution as long as it supports all available vaults with more or less unlimited devices without "sharing" my vaults in a public/3rd party place.

    As I mentioned above as well, 1Password for Teams is a great option for these criteria. It's secure, it's private, and it's available nearly anywhere you have a browser (in addition to supported apps):

    1Password for Teams security

    With 1Password for Teams, even if someone were to gain access to the server data, it was encrypted locally on your machine before it left, and both your Master Password and Account Key are never transmitted and only known by you, so it isn't even possible to perform a brute force attack on your Master Password: it alone cannot be used to decrypt the data. :sunglasses:

  • Okay, I give up. Try to sell this "1Password for teams for 5 bucks a month per user" thing to someone else, please.

    If that is your agenda, fine. I will look for an alternative and go back to a single vault solution in the meantime. Ô_o

  • The pricing for 1Password for Teams has not been set.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    @thomashempel

    We only mention it as a possible solution as it seemingly meets your requirements. If you aren't interested, that is okay too, but we're probably not going to build in "yet another sync service" that checks all the same boxes.

    As hawkmoth mentioned pricing for Teams has not yet been set. We have plans to market Teams to families as well, not just businesses, and that may very well have an entirely different pricing structure.

    AgileBits Blog | Staying Organized with 1Password for Teams

    Ben

  • @bwoodruff I don't use multiple vaults in order to share some of them. My intention was to completely separate private and business data. Sharing might be a future option. So personally I could live with the limitation of an iCloud sync of multiple vaults using a single AppleID. Of course this might not be the case for other users of multiple vaults.

    Yes, I've read Dave's post (like most of his other posts) and as being a software developer myself unterstand his point of view from a business perspective.

    1Password for Teams might be a good solution but it's a bit other the top for my needs.

    Concerning WiFi sync it would the perfect solution for my needs if it would support syncing not only one master/server computer with multiple mobile devices but multiple computers to multiple mobile devices. Maybe I should use a mixture of folder and WiFi sync.

    Kai

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    I understand you do not, but you are in the minority on that. There are certainly others who use multiple vaults with no intention of sharing them, but the primary demand for having multiple vaults was to be able to more easily share sets of data.

    A mixture of WiFi + folder sync may very well be an option. It isn't something I'd recommend to someone who isn't familiar with file systems, 3rd party sync tools, networking, and such but based on your background I'm sure you could find a workable solution (perhaps even involving syncing with WebDAV to your NAS). You would of course need a tool on your computers that could sync from the folder on your computer to the NAS via WebDAV, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if such a thing exists.

    Thanks!

    Ben

  • @bwoodruff @hawkmoth The site (https://teams.1password.com/pricing/) states "Starting from $4.99 per user per month / Free during beta". Maybe that should be removed, so people like me are not irritated.

    Anyways, I guess you are right. There will never be one solution that works for everybody. So I will find a way to live with it, or work my way around the issues I encounter.

    Sorry for my "angry rant" before.

  • "Starting from $4.99 per user per month / Free during beta". Maybe that should be removed, so people like me are not irritated.

    Right, but note that the price is obscured, albeit not completely. I agree with you that page leads visitors to think that it will be $4.99 per user per month. If I were in control of anything, I would obscure that price further so that it is completely unreadable. I wasn't irritated, but I did think this would lead people to think pricing has been determined.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @thomashempel: No need to apologize. I'm sorry if you felt I was trying to push something on you. It did sound to me from the description of your criteria that it might be a good fit for you, so I would have been negligent to not at least mention it.

    @viswiz: It's true that pricing hasn't been determined, and we're working on (non-business) pricing for families and individuals. But I think the most important thing for folks now is that 1Password for Teams is completely free in beta. And once the beta is over and pricing is announced, if you think it isn't worth the money for any reason, it's trivial to move your items back the same way you copied them to a Teams vault initially if you prefer the "classic" approach.

    But frankly, part of the reason we've built 1Password for Teams is that we have a lot more flexibility and control over database formats, and determining what is supported now, and what will be in the future. One of the benefits of CloudKit is that it has a lot of structure and efficiency. There are decisions there that are made for us, and that's pretty nice in some ways. But that's also part of the difficulty of trying to do more with it: it's a lot of work to try to bend iCloud to our will, and in some cases it just isn't able to accommodate. We can make 1Password for Teams pretty much exactly what we need/want it to be.

    That said, we may be able to add some more functionality to 1Password's iCloud Syncing in the future. It will most likely always be constrained in some way, but we'd absolutely like to make it more powerful if possible. Thanks for letting us know this is something you'd like us to do! :)

  • I'd like to put another vote for synching multiple vaults over iCloud. Same as Thomas, this is not about sharing vaults for me. I simply have 1 vault for personal stuff, and 1 vault for work. Seems like a very common use case for every employed person. I still sometimes access personal vault from work, and vice-versa (working from home), so it's mainly about having better separation of accounts. That separation is great when changing jobs for example. Kudos for the multiple-vault feature for that!

    The issue is... my personal vault is the primary one, no problem synching. However synching the work vault is very tedious. Dropbox is not an option as I can't install DropBox on my company Macbook (policy). Synching over WIFI means I have to remember to open 1Password on my phone from work to hoover up changes, then open it again at home to send the changes to my personal computer, and same thing the other way around.

    If I was using Dropbox, I could easily create home.opvault and work.opvault. Is there a technical limitation why I couldn't have both vaults in iCloud, just like I already have 100 notes and 500 other documents there? Why a single vault? If it's just about the inability to share vaults between different Apple IDs, could there be an option in the Vault settings to either choose "can be shared" or "can be added to iCloud"?

    Thanks

  • khadkhad Social Choreographer

    Team Member

    Thanks for your vote for this, @agile_user! I will make sure the developers know you are also interested in this. I completely understand when this might be useful, and your use case is precisely one of those times.

    We don't normally discuss future plans, so I can't make any promises about when or even if this will happen, but we always take user feedback like this into consideration.

  • This feature request gets thumbs up also by me. 1Password is a great app, probably most useful app I have on my devices, but the need for Dropbox to make this work is also not a solution for me.

    Similar request for syncing multiple vaults was also made already in September 2014.

    So I think the multiple vault possibility is great, syncing them all over iCloud automatically to all Apple devices would be welcomed by many users.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Thanks for the feedback! Perhaps we'll be able make it possible to sync multiple vaults via iCloud in the future. It's good to know that you'd appreciate this feature as well! :)

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