If I bought 1Password Pro, am I going to have to subscribe in the future?

24

Comments

  • MartinJMartinJ Junior Member

    Not a happy surprise... I use 1Password since several versions, love it and recommended it to everyone I met. Only time I was not completely happy was when I upgraded my Stand-Alone app , just to find out that it lost the ability to sync via iCloud (Dropbox was a pain to sync). So I simply bought another license for the same version from the App-Store (which I normally avoid). Small price to be happy again. So yes, I'm willing to pay for good software. But a subscription is not an option for me. As mentioned above by others, it is a mindset. So I strongly support the others in this thread who spoke out for normal licenses in future versions (7.x etc.).

    I already had to ditch Adobe Photoshop when they moved to subscription only. Took a while but now I can live with GIMP. Don't need this with 1Password as well.

  • Hello!

    This is my first post in your forums in fact I registered only to post this…..

    As a customer I feel betrayed by your move to push your subscription model. I want to explain why.

    I use 1Password since V4 and I recommended your App to lot of people. Until this week I was a very happy customer and I thought of 1Password as one of the essential Apps on my devices.

    Your move to only promote the subscription model and put your license model somewhere, where no one is going to find and buy it, is a harsh move. I think that your excuse, that you removed your license model from selling on your site, because people bought the wrong product, is lame. Than probably you have to rethink how you communicate and advertise in a correct way? This cleary shows where your are heading. To let the license model die! If you are not going to sell it, you have an excuse to remove it completely.

    I will not use your cloud based subscription model. Never! Never, ever!

    As some of your team members used this thread to promote your subscription model again, I feel betrayed and not recognized as a customer:

    • I will never cloud sync my database to whatever provider
    • I have no interest in using your servers for this service
    • I have no interest in sharing my passwords with someone

    These are my passwords, the foundation of my digital life. I want to have total control over them! I sync those to my devices over a heavily secured WiFi, and this works great.

    I understand, that you as a company have to generate profit to exist. But I am not willing to pay for a service that I do not need and a service that I am uncomfortable with. But I will gladly pay for a license when V7 arrives!!! But with your answers you show, that you don´t want to commit to the old license model, many of your customers used or still use. Please respect the needs of those and keep selling real license and get them back online, so anyone interested can find them.

    If I am not going to find what I need in your products I will leave, this is business. Even if this means, that I am going to get back to a protected Excel Sheet to manage my passwords.

    Still hoping that you will sort this out!

  • RomanRoman 1Password Alumni

    @MartinJ and @BioChip - Thanks for sharing your concerns, we're taking them seriously. I can't put it in better words than Ben in this discussion, so I'll quote him instead:

    I'll reiterate that as it stands:

    • Licenses never expire. As long as they work for you, have at it. ;) This will not change. We're not going to revoke licenses just because they are old. That doesn't mean that if a future update from Apple (or Mozilla, or Google, or Dropbox, etc etc) breaks an old version that we're going to be able to invest development time to fix it. We will not promise future compatibility of products no longer in active development (e.x. 1Password 3 for iOS was retired in 2012 and will not run on iOS 11, at all, and we can't fix that).
    • 1Password 6 for Mac is the latest version, is available with a license, and is still in active development.
    • There have been no changes announced for existing license holders.
    • If you're happy with your current 1Password experience no one is forcing you to change. You're welcome to continue to use that setup for as long as it works for you.

    That's where we are at the moment. :)

  • MartinJMartinJ Junior Member

    Thanks for replying. For the "That's where we are at the moment" comment...

    If you read through most of the comments : None of your customers that have used 1Password from the early days is suddenly unsatisfied or even wants to move to another software. For the greatest part, we are happy and have been for years. When 1Password 7.x comes out, I'm happy to upgrade and will advise all my friends/family/colleagues to do the same. IF THERE IS a full license model as before. All we are saying here in this forum is that PLEASE keep an option without subscription.

    I fully understand that your service with running the synchronization server will produce running costs that needs to be covered and a subscription model makes sense. But many of us do not need / want that extra service. I MUCH prefer to sync files via my own servers that I control. BTW, if you include support for various "owncloud" versions, I would be even more happy.

    As a summary : If you would have kept this as an option, most people would be really happy. But the fact that you removed (or well hidden) the normal license pissed off a lot of your loyal and highly satisfied users. - We want to stay with you. Please don't drive us away.

    best regards

     M.
    
  • Hello Roman!

    Thanks for your answer with the quote of Ben. Of course I read this and this was know to me.

    My fear, and probably the fear of others is not, that you will abandon V6 of 1Password. My fear is, that V7 will not be available as a license model any longer. V6 will not run forever, especially if you use a Mac. Apple is notoriously known for breaking compatibility in new OS Versions....

    I wanted to express my concerns and my fear of losing this valuable App.

    **Using a Password manager is a matter of trust. Trust in the product, trust in the company behind and trust in the future of the product. **

  • Hello Roman. Ben's thread that you copied are not comforting words! As stated above by several other users, V6 will eventually stop working on future OS versions, and what happens then, I can only imagine. Those of us who would like to continue using stand-alone will have no access to our password database, and I assume converting then to a subscription based product will be fruitless in trying to recover those passwords. So to me, Ben's words come off as a veiled threat to submit, or else! I'm looking for other options, and I must say, it is really hard, because I love the current stand-alone! It is nearly inconceivable to me that you would take such a highly rated and beloved program, along with what has been the best customer service, and trash it like this!

  • So sad to read this in another thread: https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/76057/standalone-on-ios

    1Password 6 for Windows is only compatible with our new 1Password.com accounts. Posted by Frank, a Team Member.

    So I would guess with V7 it really is over with the license model....

    Fits the impression I already had and kagy summed this up really fine for me.

  • whatever you say, you forced subscription plan. most people don't like to pay for rent products and going to find other solutions. just read posts here and comments on app store... 1Password 6 for windows support only subscription plan and I believe that will be happen with Mac version too. I use a 1Password for almost two months and I write 15 posts here because different confusions and complications... I'm really tired and don't have time for this mess. I got my refund from apple and install Enpass who doing a same job for free.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    Thanks for the feedback folks.

    For those concerned about pricing, I'd ask:

    Does 1Password provide value to you that lines up with the price? Admittedly we feel 1Password is a premium offering, and is priced to reflect that. We do offer annual agreements, are are looking at the possibility of offering longer term commitments for those who prefer.

    For those concerned about security, I'd ask:

    Have you read our 1Password Security Design White Paper? Or if you're less technically inclined and want to have an idea of what we do to protect your data, we have a guide available here: About the 1Password security model

    For those who can answer 'no' to the first question, and/or can answer 'yes' to the second, and still aren't convinced… then perhaps 1Password is not the right solution for you. Obviously we want 1Password to have as broad appeal as possible but we're never going to be able to appease everyone.

    I appreciate that a number of folks want to continue using 1Password as they have been. It is a great testament to the products we've built. And we've made every attempt to be as transparent as possible in this regard – we're not telling anyone they can't do just that. What I can't responsibly do is speculate on future plans that do not exist yet. As further information becomes available we will keep you in the loop. :)

    Thanks.

    Ben

  • Hi all,

    I have read this thread over time and IMHO there is a bit too much drama involved. Some users are getting upset about things that are in the future. From my perspective, nothing is written in stone. There are options, but that's it.
    I read about "guesses", "feelings" and "imaginations". To be honest, those are and have never been a good basis for a decision. Why not wait until things are clearer?

    To accuse AgileBits of being greedy, betraying people or forcing them to the subscription is at least unfair.
    A little reminder: Agile has not charged for major upgrades since 2013 (that was the upgrade from 1Password 3 to 4). Since then they have released a lot of updates and new features at no cost. Those updates did not come from nothing.

    I have always thought of AB to be a fair company and I'm sure they will not force anyone into anything.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member
    edited March 2017

    Thanks for the kind words, @Manaburner. Good point about upgrades! In some ways I think we've caused some of our own difficulties by charging for upgrades so infrequently. It has always been our policy that major upgrades could have an upgrade fee attached to them, but you're right: we've released two major upgrades without charging any fee. As such unfortunately I think that has affected the perceived value of 1Password. If folks really stop and think about what 1Password does for them... at least in my mind $3 / mo doesn't really seem like very much.

    Ben

  • If folks really stop and think about what 1Password does for them... at least in my mind $3 / mo doesn't really seem like very much.

    I agree but there is definitely a psychological difference. It's the idea that you have to keep paying to keep the software working. With a license it feels like you've made a fixed investment that doesn't expire.

    Personally, I don't quite see it that way though. I think there are advantages to renting certain types of products. Ironically, it makes me feel less committed to a product. Say I become dissatisfied with 1Password tomorrow and want to switch to another product. Now if I'm paying a monthly fee, all I lose is at most one month of subscription. On the other hand if I've paid a big sum up front, I'd feel much less inclined to change to another product.

    I think people should consider that perspective. Some people seem to suggest that renting software makes the developers less likely to want to improve and maintain the product. I think it's quite the opposite for the reason described above.

  • I've gotta say, I'm really struggling to understand what exactly is getting people so riled up. At least from where I sit, if you've bought a standalone license (I have, for v4), literally nothing has changed, these licenses still exist and are being maintained and everything still "just works". There was never a guarantee that the software would work forever (how much of your MacOS 9 software works on current versions of MacOS? How many of us still run Windows 3.11 applications on Windows 10?), but nor are 1Password licenses going to intentionally stop working (end of license/subscription), rather, 1Password updates will be free until the next major version, which has been the model since I started using 1Password.

    Now I totally get AgileBits pushing users toward the subscription model and bundling sync with the package, this creates a more cohesive solution for less technical users, but they're still selling the old model even to new customers who want it, so for those who prefer that option, what's the problem?

    With that being said, I actually like the subscription model, as long as the price is reasonable. I get the whole ownership vs rental, but when it comes to software, I don't want to buy a piece of software as-is, I want bugs fixed, I want the latest and greatest improvements, I want ongoing compatibility with new operating systems and browsers, and I want a company that provides support when needed and listens to their customer's opinions about future development. And I really don't want a company that is holding back on new features because they feel like they need to justify a paid upgrade in a few months.

    I've never felt a company that already has my money and won't get more money from me has any particular need to listen to my opinion, so while ownership and perpetual licenses have their place, when software needs ongoing support and integration with third party products (browsers and new OSes), I want the current version and I want it actively developed. And, I want a company that needs to do this to keep their business alive; when a company wants me to pay an upcoming bill rather than jump to the competition, they are forced to provide a good service, and to keep up with updates, and in exchange, the subscription model gives much more consistent and predictable income stream, which makes it possible to budget for and retain talent.

    For tools that don't need regular updates, I actively prefer to buy once and "own" it, but for tools that require ongoing development to really work the way I want today and tomorrow, the subscription model seems to increase the odds of a company being able to pay developers to keep improving their product.

    But with all of that being said, I feel it speaks very highly of AgileBits to continue to offer the standalone license for customers who prefer it, even though the motivation to move toward a subscription model makes more business sense.

  • @Ben Only to make my point clear: I will gladly pay for an upgrade to V7. I use 1Password daily and I know what it is worth to me. But what I am not willing to pay for is a cloud based sync service I do not want and need. Cloud based solutions are much less secure than a local one!

  • If I might respond to @TheDave, what frustrates me about the situation is how profoundly disingenuous AgileBits is being about it. On the one hand we have AgileBits employees in this thread doing the Chip Diller routine -- "Remain calm, all is well!" -- while on the other the subscription model is being held forth as the "preferred" choice and the standalone licensing model is being dropped from the advertising copy. It's not hard to see the writing on the wall provided you're willing to look; I'd just prefer the company to officially acknowledge that standalone licensing is not part of their future plans rather than trying to be cute about it in a fairly transparent effort to avoid (IMNSHO well-deserved) criticism.

    As to your point about being willing to pay for support and active development, I'd make two counter-arguments. First, the marketplace is crawling with companies that provide first-rate support, ongoing development, and even hosted services while still selling their software via a standalone licensing model (the Omni Group springs immediately to mind). Subscription pricing is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for software companies to deliver quality products and support. It doesn't make it any more likely that a company is going to listen to or care about your opinion, or provide compelling updates that keep it ahead of the competition (see, e.g., Evernote).

    Second, and more importantly, have you actually looked at the feature list for 1Password releases recently? I'd defy you to identify any real stand-up-and-take-notice new hotness; the product and the underlying technology are fairly mature, and frankly what's been rolled out over the last eighteen to twenty-four months has the distinct whiff of a transition from an innovation mode to a sustaining mode. There's nothing wrong with that -- it happens with nearly every piece of software eventually -- but don't tell me that a company requires "a much more consistent and predictable income stream, which makes it possible to budget for and retain talent" when the visible result of their development efforts have for some time been incremental fit-and-finish enhancements.

    Reading between the lines of this, "We think the subscription pricing model is a better experience for most of our customers," song and dance, I think two things are going on here. First, AgileBits has discovered that sync is hard, and has decided that the best way of making it easier on themselves -- if not their customers, many of whom would be perfectly happy to go on using iCloud or Dropbox -- is to own both ends of the sync process. Second, AgileBits is under increasing pressure from high-quality alternatives like Dashlane, and they're finding that the high up-front cost of the standalone license is a competitive disadvantage.

    All of that is understandable. But for those of us who've plunked down a lot of money for standalone 1Password licenses over the years, and now see the "EOL" train off in the distance but definitely headed our way, it still sucks.

  • I agree to some extent that there isn't a ton of "new" development happening from the client side, unless you look at the 1Password 6 for Windows, which is a full on, ground-up rewrite and even in the last 12 weeks or so (when I've been testing a Teams and Families account) there are noticeable improvements.

    Beyond that, most of the work is definitely happening on the backend service side of things, and even today you can do things in a Team environment that were simply impossible before even with storing multiple vaults across multiple Dropbox shares and managing the whole mess. Does this benefit you, a standalone, non-subscriber user? No. But, if AgileBits can dig into the corporate world, this will be dramatically more profitable for them and will fund development for everyone going forward.

    I've worked for and with companies who have phased out older plans, and AgileBits has taken some steps in the opposite direction, they do seem to understand that the standalone plans are needed and they seem committed to maintaining them. Maybe this is lip-service and things will change, but, I'll take them at their word as they've always dealt honestly and fairly with me (and I can be a pain sometimes).

  • philosopherdogphilosopherdog Junior Member

    So essentially 1Password is going to eventually force everyone into this subscription model. For those with currently purchased versions it's just a matter of time. Fair enough. I guess we need to evaluate our options then.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    No one is being forced to subscribe. At this time we are not marketing the standalone products, but they continue to function as they always have for folks who already have them.

    Even if we do eventually exclusively offer subscription based options we won't be taking away anyone's license.

    Ben

  • @Ben, that's a perfect example of the kind of disingenuousness that I mentioned above, that I find so frustrating.

    "No one is being forced to subscribe." Right. You guys are just issuing ham-fisted suggestions and recommendations while trying to convince us all that we shouldn't read anything into it because the future's, like, uncertain, man.

    "Even if we do eventually exclusively offer subscription based options we won't be taking away anyone's license." Right. You'll just eventually EOL the standalone-licensed options, which will force anybody who wants product updates to get on your subscription hamster wheel and start paying for a cloud-sync service they may not want or need.

    I've been an AgileBits customer since 2011, but at this point I think I'm done with you guys. Your competitors aren't perfect but at least they don't run around insulting my intelligence.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, but it sounds as though you've already made up your mind.

    Ben

  • Sorry @Ben to chime with @violent_sociopath. But the way he describes his impression fits my perception, too. I know that communication, especially in a written form in a discussion forum is very difficult and subjective. But I think disingenuousness describes what I think of at the moment when I think of the whole stuff. Hiding the license model away, so that nobody will buy, it gives you simply the excuse to stop selling it when V7 arrives. Because, guess what? You sold not enough licenses.... This is simply lame.

    Look at the reviews in the AppStore: Here in Germany there is a whole bunch (over 40) of 1star reviews because of your move to scrap licensing. Your endless way of promoting the new model to the critical customers here, feels (sorry for this harsh word, it is meant in a professional and not personal way) ignorant. Yes, people are afraid of change. But in todays environment you should accept, that not everyone wants to put the passwords in the cloud. Maybe certain kinds of people prefer the safety of there own systems. And for those people it is very hard to understand why on earth to software has to be subscribed to ....

    Please remember what I wrote earlier on: Using a Password manager is a matter of trust. Trust in the product, trust in the company behind and trust in the future of the product.

    I for my part will leave only with regret. I use 1Password every day, and even my not very tech-savvy wife recognizes the value of your software. But you will loose me (and probably others too) if I am pushed into a subscription I do not want or need.

  • ssorokassoroka 1Password Alumni
    edited March 2017

    Hey @BioChip,

    "Hiding the license model" isn't something we initially wanted to do, and in fact, originally we didn't! we showed both options as two equally valid options without encouraging customers to pick one over the other. The result was a disaster. It was a huge drain on our support resources, new customers were confused, and existing customers didn't understand if they should upgrade or not. Our decision to support the license model is still causing a lot of grief, even de-emphasized. It'd be a lot easier for us if we just scrapped it completely, but we don't want to do that. We know some people have a completely valid use case that doesn't need sync between devices, doesn't need backups, sharing options, and we know that some people just hate the idea of a recurring payment, even if it will cost them less or provide a better experience, and that isn't meant to be read as cynical. We're keeping licenses around, but they can absolutely not be the focus. Let me explain:

    Most of our customers want 1Password to be the best that it can be. They want their family to be able to share passwords, they want to not have to worry about losing access to a backup, they don't want to worry about how sync works, or setting up third-party services. Those were weak experiences with our product that we've improved by taking control of that piece of the service and replacing it with something better. Running these services have on-going costs, and charging a one-time fee for a customer who then incurs on-going costs to the business makes no sense. The price structure is not an evil plan, but a direct reflection of the changing times in how companies do business. You don't upload files to FTP sites anymore. Streaming has taken over downloading services, and for good reason: it provides a better customer experience. Change sucks for everyone. You learn how to do something one way, then someone goes and changes it and now nothing works anymore. We respect that and we're trying to not rock the boat for existing customers who just "like things the way they are". But our competition isn't sitting still. We were never a "sitting still" company. We innovate. "Agile" is in our company name. We must keep moving forward. Keep challenging old ways of doing things, and maybe even break a few things if it means making a better product. Part of this means strongly recommending a path for new customers that has the least amount of pain. It's so hard to watch a new customer try our product and get frustrated over too many options, too many things to understand. Good products simplify things, they make the right path easy to see with multiple ways to get back on track, rather than multiple ways to get derailed. We work every day to make our product the better product.

    You bring up the issue of trust. If I can read between the lines, it sounds like you're saying you don't trust us to not do a "bait and switch": Sure we say we support licenses today, you might say "but see? you're already downplaying them. How long before they're just not available? you guys won't even admit that version 7 will support licenses!". We are downplaying them. Version 7 may not support licenses, but there's no malice here. We're happy to help you run with version 6 as long as possible, but eventually, one day far from now, there will be a new OS that breaks something, there will be security advancements in quantum computing that make upgrading a good idea. Will we force you to change to a subscription? No; we will not. At some point you're going to start limiting yourself, though. 1Password 6 was not sold to you with the promise that it will "work for all future operating systems", and nobody would ever claim that. We do back-port important security changes to old products, as do a lot of other software, but there comes a day, eventually, where you just have to say, "it's time to upgrade". For subscribers, every day is upgrade day.

    Hope this sheds some light.

    Cheers,
    Steven.

  • Thank you for your great post @ssoroka . Really appreciate it

  • Believe it or not, @Ben, but I really hadn't made up my mind until the last few posts to this thread, and I'm still not particularly excited about paying the opportunity cost of moving to another solution. As I mentioned I've been using 1Password for 5+ years, and have, during that time, recommended it enthusiastically to countless friends, family members, and colleagues. I've done that in no small part because you guys have continued to support use cases in which actual security, rather than the market's current infatuation with cross-device portability, is paramount.

    Simply put, I am not interested in putting my passwords at rest on computers and devices outside of my physical control. By carefully controlling when and to which devices I sync my data, and limiting how many copies of it exist, I am far less susceptible to having it stolen or compromised than even the very best data security model can make me -- and hence your white papers, while all very interesting and impressive, are ultimately beside the point. Right now I'm not forced to care about what you guys are or aren't doing on the backend. I don't have to worry about (for example) whether and how the policies of a government that isn't accountable to me might force you to compromise your security model and build exploitable backdoors into your service. That, to me, is your "killer feature," your principal value-add, the thing that makes your software worth buying in the first place.

    The way you're now preferring your subscription service has led people like me to wonder whether you're committed to supporting us not just today, but into the future, i.e., beyond the 6.x release. I came here to try to resolve those doubts. Instead, you've given me a lot of what I can only interpret as evasive double-talk: "Nothing is changing now (but it might eventually); we're not forcing you to do anything (we're just making 'suggestions,' hint hint); and if we do change your existing software will still work (it just won't be supported)."

    Put yourself in my shoes. Why shouldn't I start giving your competitors a hard look?

  • Put yourself in my shoes. Why shouldn't I start giving your competitors a hard look?

    Because AgileBits has made it abundantly clear, over and over and over, that they understand your desires and are keeping your desired functionality (technical and licensing) in place?

    Why jump ship because they choose to accommodate you? Wouldn't it make more sense to stick with a business who does what you ask, and make a change if they change their approach? It's not as though you're making any commitment that would preclude a change later either, are you?

  • Because AgileBits has made it abundantly clear, over and over and over, that they understand your desires and are keeping your desired functionality (technical and licensing) in place?

    Aside from the minor detail that they haven't actually done this, solidly argued!

    Why jump ship because they choose to accommodate you?

    Because they haven't. Here's what accommodating me would look like: "We're committed to supporting non-subscription, non-cloud-sync use cases not just in the 6.x release, but in future releases as well, end of line."

  • In the end of the day you are here fighting for a commitment, which clearly shows that you must truly like the product. The competition for password management is getting super ferrous out there. Many companies IMHO are putting out really decent looking products. I've been on this 1Password ride for a long time and it's very interesting to watch this shift. I swear 10 years ago AgileBits was talking about how they weren't interested in doing a sync service at all, but they have actually come up with one of the best on the market. You truly can't beat the security they have implemented and if you can or don't want to be on the ride then go check out some of the other options. 1Password licenses used to go on sale for like $15 or so and the shift up to $60+ was amazing to see, but never have I once considered not paying for this service. Don't tell anyone but I would easily pay double and the truth of the matter is 10 years from now we probably will be. The deal they give you for families is actually quite amazing.

    The way I look at it is if you weren't paying for the service then there would just need to be a major release every year which you end up paying $60+ for anyway. Everyone will have their own opinion and honestly people will go, but a lot of people will stay and continue staying if the price raises.

    On a totally off topic side note I'm way more disappointed in video games costing $60, then 5 expansions for $10-20+ but if you look at it , development costs, inflation, everything just gets more expensive.

    Just my two cents. #life

    Cheers,
    Andrew

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Here's what accommodating me would look like: "We're committed to supporting non-subscription, non-cloud-sync use cases not just in the 6.x release, but in future releases as well, end of line."

    @violent_sociopath: This is getting really strange. I'm only willing to make that kind of commitment to a single individual, and you're not them. And collectively, we're not going to accommodate you by making a "forever" commitment about 1Password when we don't know what the future will bring, as doing so would be really, really inappropriate and weird (not to mention short-sighted). This is software we're talking about, not marriage. We could absolutely tell you exactly what you want to hear, but it wouldn't be the truth, as the truth is that, like you, we don't know the future. What you're asking us to commit to may not even be possible in the future for a variety of reasons entirely outside of our control, so what would truly be disingenuous (not to mention creepy) would be us promising you "forever" in a technological landscape filled with change. If and when we're in a position to offer something more definitive, we'll do so. In the mean time, Steven offered a pretty comprehensive overview of where we're at today and our journey over the past year with both new and existing customers who wanted to try 1Password.com. A person who is willing to offer you "forever" is worth getting to know; a technology company that does so probably won't be around long enough to deliver on it.

  • I will never switch to the subscription model. I would buy a new/update license for 1Password 7+, but if you force me to the subscription model you will loose me as a customer. There are enough other other competitors :-)

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @Hanterdro: Thank you for letting us know! We'll definitely take that into consideration if and when we develop new versions. :)

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