On WLAN Sync in 1Password 7

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Comments

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @kermit4karate: Would you at least agree that something we never have cannot be stolen from us?

  • @brenty
    Thanks for taking time to write a reply.

    Yes I read it - you didn't actually removed the feature but you left it completely out in the new version. I'm assuming here that 1P7 is a successor of 1P4 and that you do not keep 1P4 in the lifecycle for further development so in fact if one "upgrades" from the phasing out 1P4 to the actual 1P7 the feature is in fact removed. Or can you assure that 1P4 with the local sync option will stay an actual and maintained product alongside with 1P7?

    My comment about the Apple store was because in the app recension I pointed to regulatory issues with members of the 5 eye states and the person responding to the comment pretended to not know the term at all. At least I now know that this was not you :)

    I deeply agree that it makes no difference security wise if the data is stored in Canada or Germany and this is exactly the point - the data should not have to be synced/ stored on any system outside of my / my companys control. That's it what our customers and in major terms our law is asking for – the data has to stay under your control and no matter what domestic (in my case Switzerland which is not even part of the EC but that's another story).

    As of today there are no writings on the wall that there is a flaw in the encryption of the 1password files but it's obvious that if one would try to break the security or if there is one day a known flaw that it is much safer if the "attacker" is not in possession of the encrypted file but if it is delivered to him free of charge via Dropbox.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Thanks for taking time to write a reply.

    @Searchlight: You're very welcome! And likewise! :)

    Yes I read it - you didn't actually removed the feature but you left it completely out in the new version. I'm assuming here that 1P7 is a successor of 1P4 and that you do not keep 1P4 in the lifecycle for further development so in fact if one "upgrades" from the phasing out 1P4 to the actual 1P7 the feature is in fact removed. Or can you assure that 1P4 with the local sync option will stay an actual and maintained product alongside with 1P7?

    If a security flaw is discovered, it will be addressed. WLAN Server hasn't changed for years though, so continuing to use that has no barriers — apart from the network environment.

    My comment about the Apple store was because in the app recension I pointed to regulatory issues with members of the 5 eye states and the person responding to the comment pretended to not know the term at all. At least I now know that this was not you :)

    Instead of making insinuations about someone you don't know, I think you should consider that not everyone lives in one of those countries, or particularly cares about stuff like this that doesn't affect them. And before you jump up and down, again, this doesn't impact the use of end-to-end encryption, which will include 1Password. :sunglasses:

    I deeply agree that it makes no difference security wise if the data is stored in Canada or Germany and this is exactly the point - the data should not have to be synced/ stored on any system outside of my / my companys control. That's it what our customers and in major terms our law is asking for – the data has to stay under your control and no matter what domestic (in my case Switzerland which is not even part of the EC but that's another story).

    I'm not familiar with that particular law. Can you point me in the right direction?

    As of today there are no writings on the wall that there is a flaw in the encryption of the 1password files but it's obvious that if one would try to break the security or if there is one day a known flaw that it is much safer if the "attacker" is not in possession of the encrypted file but if it is delivered to him free of charge via Dropbox.

    That's sort of beside the point. If a flaw is found in "the encryption of the 1password files", it will impact everything in use now in hardware and software to secure data. But regardless, in that eventuality, it will be much easier for us to get updates to address them out 1Password.com members. We don't even have a way to contact many of our other customers, much less push out changes to them all. There's a lot more to consider beyond how encrypted data is sync'd.

  • @brenty “We didn't cancel anything. And, as you mentioned, you can still use WLAN Server in the versions that have that feature; we're not removing it.”

    @brenty Insisting that you haven't canceled WLAN because it will still exist in the old version is like saying that Ford isn't getting out of the car business in North America...because people can still drive their old cars around (and there's always the Mustang).

    You did cancel it. Which is why everyone here is upset.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member
    edited June 2018

    Insisting that you haven't canceled WLAN because it will still exist in the old version is like saying that Ford isn't getting out of the car business in North America...because people can still drive their old cars around (and there's always the Mustang).

    Yep. :)

    You did cancel it. Which is why everyone here is upset.

    Nope. :)

    So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Still trying to find common ground though:

    Would you at least agree that something we never have cannot be stolen from us?

  • Would you at least agree that something we never have cannot be stolen from us?

    @brenty Sure, but it isn't applicable in this case. You're playing with semantics and using a straw man argument. I never said that AgileBits stole anything from us, and you repeating something misleading doesn't make it true. The previous version of 1Password for Windows supported WLAN local sync but the new version doesn't.

    Like another user in this forum thread, I took a closer look at Keepass after this and migrated to it last night, so I'm done using 1Password for now. My Windows PCs, OS X systems, and iPhones are all syncing my password vault locally now, and I don't have to store my vault in the cloud. The migration was also easier than I thought.

    I still prefer 1Password's UI, but I don't prefer it enough to compromise on this, and frankly the company's glib responses in this thread were a major turnoff. Thanks for the memories.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @kermit4karate: You're really reading way too much into it. There are no semantics or straw men involved. It's very straightforward. Because you said,

    storing my password vault in your cloud carries with it a greater risk of compromise than does storing it on my home network

    I was trying to bring it back to the fundamental question:

    Would you at least agree that something we never have cannot be stolen from us?

    I was referring, of course, to the Secret Key and Master Password, which are needed to decrypt the data even if it is stolen from us. Since we don't have those, an attacker would necessarily have to go after the user to get them.

    Anyway, at the end of the day, we'd rather you use another product than nothing at all if 1Password isn't a good fit for you right now. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us, and stay safe out there!

  • We are arguing for 3 months already.......You could have written the feature in the time it took you to write all those responses....

  • I have subscribed to the newsletter. Other people I know have. Many people here have. We've suggested giving money for it. We gave all possible explanations why we want it. I'm sorry but at this point it is clear that nothing will convince you. You never give a clear answer to the question: "Are you going to do it or not?" I am willing to bet $100 that the feature will not be introduced ever. I suggest you tell us that you will not, we close this forum and we stop wasting our time.

  • jpgoldbergjpgoldberg Agile Customer Care

    Team Member

    You never give a clear answer to the question: "Are you going to do it or not?"

    That is absolutely correct, @WendY1. We have not given you a clear answer because we do not have a clear answer to give. We're not trying to lead people on, but are trying to understand both the reasons for the demand and the quantity of the demand. So we don't know. We also like the freedom to change our minds.

    I have subscribed to the newsletter. Other people I know have. Many people here have.

    I am reluctant to say how many people have signed up because I don't want to encourage ballot box stuffing. But if we assume that for everyone person who has, there are another 500 people who feel similarly, we are still looking at substantially less than 1% of 1Password users. Because there is necessarily a lot of guess work, we're not going to say that we require X threshold. It's just that this is information that also goes into where we allocate resources. (Again, if we end up with reason to suspect ballot box stuffing, we will just end up dismissing the count altogether. We're not going to end up with a feature called "Syncy MacSyncface.")

    We've suggested giving money for it.

    I expect that we will ask those who signed up on the newsletter about this. But we want to give the signup some more time before we email to the list. It may be that that is a viable way forward, but we don't know yet. Again, I really am telling you what we know. If there'd been a firm decision internally, we would tell you.

    We gave all possible explanations why we want it. I'm sorry but at this point it is clear that nothing will convince you.

    You are correct that we've not been greatly persuaded by the reasons that people have offered. Many of those reasons have some merit, but you are right that we have not found them compelling. But when we asked, we didn't know what reasons people would give. Perhaps there were reasons that we hadn't thought of or arguments that we hadn't anticipated.

    By letting you know in this discussion what we think of the reasons that you and so many others have provided, we are being far more open with you than just saying "thank you for your input, we will take it under consideration." I would hope that that openness would be appreciated.

    I am willing to bet $100 that the feature will not be introduced ever.

    "Ever" is a very long time. But what I can say, as we've said throughout, is don't plan on us re-introducing WLAN sync. We're not ruling it out, but you should make your decisions based on what 1Password 7 offers today.

    I suggest you tell us that you will not,

    "Predictions are very hard to make. Especially about the future." (Yogi Berra).

    I'm not going to rule it out. So I will repeat (in yet other words) what I've said here many times and multiple ways. Don't count on the re-introducrtion of WLAN Sync.

    [I suggest] we close this forum and we stop wasting our time.

    Not to mention our time! I'm not enjoying this conversation any more than you are.

    But I'm still hoping for new reasons, arguments, and counter-arguments. That is, we really are open to being convinced. But you are certainly correct that nobody has said anything new in this discussion for a while. So perhaps it is time to wrap this up. @brenty, what do you think?

    We should have yet another link to the "WLAN is important to me" newsletter signup.

  • @jpgoldberg

    But if we assume that for everyone person who has, there are another 500 people who feel similarly, we are still looking at substantially less than 1% of 1Password users.

    Private users don't care about this feature because syncing using a cloud is far more convenient. If I could and If I would be allowed to I would also choose this option to keep my devices in sync (if the security of the encryption is guaranteed). Do you really have 99% of users that are only private persons or business users that don't care about their constraints?

    You are correct that we've not been greatly persuaded by the reasons that people have offered. Many of those reasons have some merit, but you are right that we have not found them compelling.

    So, for Agilebits reasons that users are violating contracts or even the law are not found to be compelling? Did you guys ever thought about that that the local sync is one of THE reasons why one choose your product? A few years ago, I switched from eWallet to SPB Password because eWallet did not support the iOS platform. Both tools supported local sync. Then SPB Wallet got cancelled at all and I had to search another tool - I looked after eWallet (now supporting iOS) and compared it to KeePass and 1P. All the three tools had two things in common: they allowed local sync and they are available for Windows, OSX and iOS. I chose 1P because of the nicer look, better WLAN sync than KeePass and some personnel preferences about Canada.

    Don't count on the re-introducrtion of WLAN Sync.

    That sounds clear to me that you have no plans to bring this very important feature back. But why are you still advertising exactly this feature here https://support.1password.com/sync-options/ and tick the supported line in the comparison table here https://support.1password.com/sync-options-security/ when you actually have removed (sorry - you did not re-implement an existing feature) this feature?

    The route that Agilebits took with its (paying) customers is a little bit annoying. Once there was a nice product that did everything well that it was supposed to do. Then Agilebits decided that they want to become a fancy cloud company and that the users should sync very sensible data like password information with a foreign cloud service. The users cried out loudly that they need the ability to have local password files and Agilebit listened to them - one step toward the right direction but they did it only to tell the exact same users in the next release "ffffft guys, if you need it so much, here is the local store option back but we will not allow you to use it with your mobile device anymore". It seems that the goal of this approach is that users cancel using local password files because they cannot sync them locally and you are able to tell us in the next software release that you cancel the local password files again because the users don't use them and instead are preferring to use your cloud or even Dropbox because they are able to sync with mobile devices.

    it can't be that hard to implement an (even existing) WLAN Sync - KeePass can do it (not very user friendly), eWallet can do it and even 1Password mastered the challenge in the past.

    We should have yet another link to the "WLAN is important to me" newsletter signup.

    So, should I setup some email accounts on my domain and subscribe multiple times to the newsletter? Why should I subscribe to a newsletter from which I've got no feedback at all since I've already subscribed to?

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    So perhaps it is time to wrap this up. @brenty, what do you think?

    @jpgoldberg: Really? :lol:

    Honestly, we tend to avoid closing forum threads unless there's good reason (outdated discussion with no activity in half a year; original poster asks that we close it because they're issue was resolved; etc.) so I'd be hesitant to close this one, if for no other reason than others would pop up anyway and make it harder for others to weigh in.

    While I don't personally feel that we've seen arguments compelling enough to make us drop everything else we're doing to build WLAN Server into the new app, especially in light of the small number of users who've weighed in on this, both in this discussion and through newsletter signups, there have been some really interesting comments from people who are as passionate about 1Password as we are, but for different reasons, and I think that's invaluable.

    If nothing else, these things definitely have an impact on my perception of WLAN Server and those who value it. More than a few people have mentioned that it isn't so much WLAN Server they care about so much as having an offline sync option, which is not at all what I expected. So perhaps there are things we can do to help with that use case in the future even without WLAN Server. There's a lot to consider, but fortunately there's no deadline.

    There; you asked. :tongue:

  • edited June 2018

    Wow. This thread is like a car accident: ugly to look at, yet you have to keep watching......

    Sadly after all the responses from AB i gave up on getting WLAN sync
    Yet i still dont understand if it is blindness or arrogance why they keep denying it.
    If customers have a demand for something, why not give it to them?

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Private users don't care about this feature because syncing using a cloud is far more convenient. If I could and If I would be allowed to I would also choose this option to keep my devices in sync (if the security of the encryption is guaranteed). Do you really have 99% of users that are only private persons or business users that don't care about their constraints?

    @Searchlight: Actually, while you're right that that is certainly a key use case, I've been surprised to hear from plenty of "private users" as well who prefer a local sync option for one reason or another. So I don't think we can discount them.

    So, for Agilebits reasons that users are violating contracts or even the law are not found to be compelling? Did you guys ever thought about that that the local sync is one of THE reasons why one choose your product?

    I don't think it's fair to blame us if people use our software to do wrong, anymore than Google is responsible for people using their search engine to pirate music (do people still do that?). And, after all, there are other options out there. But you're right: there's a void in the new Windows app for that particular use case. The reason we're here discussing it is we're trying to determine if it's viable for us to build that.

    A few years ago, I switched from eWallet to SPB Password because eWallet did not support the iOS platform. Both tools supported local sync. Then SPB Wallet got cancelled at all and I had to search another tool - I looked after eWallet (now supporting iOS) and compared it to KeePass and 1P. All the three tools had two things in common: they allowed local sync and they are available for Windows, OSX and iOS. I chose 1P because of the nicer look, better WLAN sync than KeePass and some personnel preferences about Canada.

    Thanks for doing so, and for telling us! It sounds like it's been an interesting journey for you. I'm sorry that it sounds like the new 1Password app doesn't meet all of your needs now though. :blush:

    That sounds clear to me that you have no plans to bring this very important feature back.

    We've been clear about that from the start: no plans, but something we're continuing to evaluate.

    But why are you still advertising exactly this feature here https://support.1password.com/sync-options/ and tick the supported line in the comparison table here https://support.1password.com/sync-options-security/ when you actually have removed (sorry - you did not re-implement an existing feature) this feature?

    That's not an advertisement, but as I'm sure you're aware we do have that feature in 1Password for Mac and earlier versions of 1Password for Windows. Are you suggesting we remove it from those, and from support articles for them?

    The route that Agilebits took with its (paying) customers is a little bit annoying. Once there was a nice product that did everything well that it was supposed to do. Then Agilebits decided that they want to become a fancy cloud company and that the users should sync very sensible data like password information with a foreign cloud service. The users cried out loudly that they need the ability to have local password files and Agilebit listened to them - one step toward the right direction but they did it only to tell the exact same users in the next release "ffffft guys, if you need it so much, here is the local store option back but we will not allow you to use it with your mobile device anymore". It seems that the goal of this approach is that users cancel using local password files because they cannot sync them locally and you are able to tell us in the next software release that you cancel the local password files again because the users don't use them and instead are preferring to use your cloud or even Dropbox because they are able to sync with mobile devices.

    None of that is really accurate:

    • We're not a "cloud company"; we're an independent software company.
    • The hosted service component of our business does not store "password information", only encrypted data to which we do not have the keys.
    • The vast majority of people who asked that we continue to offer a "standalone" option aren't interested in WLAN Server.
    • People syncing with Dropbox are using local vaults and licenses; "standalone" hasn't revolved around Wi-Fi sync for nearly a decade now.

    And both ourselves and many of our customers will disagree that 1Password ever "did everything well that it was supposed to do". Part of why we still love doing what we do is that there's always room for improvement, and we get to choose what we work on from so many great ideas. :)

    I understand that in your position you could perhaps not care less if the standalone option exists at all without WLAN Server, but it's our job to consider our other customers as well, many of whom are happy to be able to use 1Password with licenses and local vaults whether WLAN Server is available or not. So I don't think it's helpful to conflate "standalone" with "WLAN" and toss one out with the other.

    it can't be that hard to implement an (even existing) WLAN Sync - KeePass can do it (not very user friendly), eWallet can do it and even 1Password mastered the challenge in the past.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting it's hard. Certainly it requires a lot of time and effort developing, testing, and supporting anything involving sync though. But anything we say "yes" to means having to say "no" to a bunch of other things, so the critical matter is weighing whether or not we can justify working on WLAN Server instead of other stuff we have on our plate.

    So, should I setup some email accounts on my domain and subscribe multiple times to the newsletter? Why should I subscribe to a newsletter from which I've got no feedback at all since I've already subscribed to?

    Goldberg already addressed this:

    I am reluctant to say how many people have signed up because I don't want to encourage ballot box stuffing. [...] (Again, if we end up with reason to suspect ballot box stuffing, we will just end up dismissing the count altogether. We're not going to end up with a feature called "Syncy MacSyncface.") [...] I expect that we will ask those who signed up on the newsletter about this. But we want to give the signup some more time before we email to the list.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Wow. This thread is like a car accident: ugly to look at, yet you have to keep watching......

    @exitstrategy: Interesting analogy. :lol:

    Sadly after all the responses from AB i gave up on getting WLAN sync Yet i still dont understand if it is blindness or arrogance why they keep denying it. If customers have a demand for something, why not give it to them?

    It's a good question. But if you send a bit of time browsing the forum, you'll see just how many feature and improvement requests we receive (and, actually, some folks suggest that we branch 1Password out into distinctly non-password-manager-like territory — for example online file sharing and messaging). We can't possibly do all of that, and, arguably, we shouldn't anyway. So it's not that we're denying that some people want WLAN Server; rather, we simply can't do everything and have to be judicious:

    I don't think anyone is suggesting it's hard. Certainly it requires a lot of time and effort developing, testing, and supporting anything involving sync though. But anything we say "yes" to means having to say "no" to a bunch of other things, so the critical matter is weighing whether or not we can justify working on WLAN Server instead of other stuff we have on our plate.

    I can appreciate that being "judicious" may appear to be "arrogance" though without the benefit of the bigger picture. I don't expect anyone to actually read all of the requests we get here on the forum, much less those we receive via email, Twitter, Facebook, and pretty much anywhere else. We're fortunately to have to many customers that are as passionate about 1Password as we are, but that does mean we can't please everyone and need to make some tough choices, pretty much daily, to maintain focus and make sure we work on things that do the most good for the greatest number of 1Password users. For now, that means we're working on other things besides WLAN Server.

  • @brenty

    More than a few people have mentioned that it isn't so much WLAN Server they care about so much as having an offline sync option, which is not at all what I expected.

    That's the point - offline (local) sync without the need of using a cloud service (but not prohibit to do so). Look at the other players I mentioned - SPB Password used a similar Sync service like 1P did (in the past). eWallet does the same but I think that in eWallets implementation the mobile device is the server and not the desktop (not sure about that). KeePass (Touch) is using another approach - in sync mode the mobile device is a webserver where you can access the password file - you can copy it from your local computer, you can rename it, or you can even delete it. There is no "sync" option - you copy the whole file from one device to another.

    With 1Password the file copy way could be an option - in the Mac implementation there is a feature that allows the user to sync the used database to a 1Password file - in my case this file is stored on a local network share and I access it using the offline folder sync option for Windows to keep my password files in sync between one of my windows computers and my mac. I then sync my mobile device with the mac using the WLAN Server - it must be a solution using WLAN because the only other option would be using iTunes file transfer and this feature seems to become deprecated. To get the things more complicated I use my now synced mobile device to sync with another windows computer using WLAN (or local) sync - this computer is not connected with the other network (but I could do so if needed). I even sync another two iPads this way.

    As you can see, using the cloud to keep the devices in sync would be much more convenient and the devices would be in sync instantly - I would love to use this option.

    What I've ever done is setting a clear device hierarchy - the separated windows computer is the "master" - every change must be synced with this device and only then will be synced with the other devices using the described chain. Following this strict order, I don't really care if I'm doing a file copy or a real sync between the devices - both methods do have advantages and disadvantages.

    Maybe you should consider implementing the "server-feature" in the mobile app rather than in the desktop app so that one can sync against the mobile device and use this device to carry around the valuable information. You could even consider bringing this feature as an In-App-purchase.

  • More than a few people have mentioned that it isn't so much WLAN Server they care about so much as having an offline sync option, which is not at all what I expected. So perhaps there are things we can do to help with that use case in the future even without WLAN Server.

    I'd like to step into at this aspect, because its a very good observation!
    I'm using 1PW to sync my passwords between iOS and Windows desktop and I love the way a can access my passwords an logins within browser especially with 2FA. The way "it feels" using "save" passwords instead of one to remember in mind for newsgroups, one for email... is much better since I started with the standalone version 4 of 1PW. And of cause, a company has to earn money because its developer want to buy some food at the end of day for themselves and (maybe) for their children. That's the reason I bought 1PW version 7 (again the standalone version) and so far I do not regret it yet.

    Never the less I would like to see a option again, to sync my passwords between my desktop computer and my mobile device without being forced to use any cloud storage or service. Like above "I feel better" if I can sync the data between the two different pieces of hardware without the need of an internet connection in a more or less direct way.
    That said I would like to come back to the statement at the beginning from @brenty: To realize the data synchronization I do not necessarily need a WLAN Server. If I could use my USB-Lightning cable to get the passwords synced that would also be totally fine. Of cause using WLAN if both devices are in the same network would save some seconds connecting the cable, but if there is no router present, setting up a direct point2point WLAN connection needs probably more time then plugging a cable.
    Presumably for those who are not allowed to save data to cloud services (because of company policy or what ever reason) and for those like me who feel more comfortable not to be forced to use any third party to get passwords synced between Windows desktop and iOS device would be happy IF there would be A solution for direct synchronization in 1PW version 7. If this is technically possible in the iOS eco system (I know that Apple has many restrictions within iOS) is another discussion, but therefore agilebits has (hopefully) experts who know the APIs in detail ;)

    Thanks for your time.

    Kind regards
    SPuch

  • Ok. 1) I don’t use WLAN sync, 2) I prefer the concept of a security ecosystem, that said--

    I have also been annoyed by vendors who shut out the users completely when there was a desired feature that went away (still stings when LogMeIn started pulling back on their free accounts), who basically didn't even give the users a single word or even bother to say "tough luck buddy," but I digress.

    These guys have put themselves out there to get beat up and listen and look for an excuse to include this feature. One that overrides whatever business decisions they made in the corporate kitchen. To see if they missed something...

    It seems the right one hasn't come by, but to say they are indifferent, is a touch disingenuous. Don't berate them, give them a reason to change their minds... and repeating the same ones, based on the content, ain't gonna work.

    Maybe @spuch is on to something, don't get stuck on the specific feature, discuss some functionality. Maybe it belongs in the Business Edition, And maybe even that is not enough....

    @brenty @jpgoldberg and all the staff. I don't always agree with them, nope. But at least they engage and bring back what they read/hear to the office.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @spuch Thank you for weighing in, and for the compliment! See? We are listening! :lol:

    But in all seriousness, I don't want to presume to say that everyone who has an interest in WLAN Server would be equally happy with another local sync option. But certainly some would.

    Personally I like the concept of USB sync since it's so dang straightforward. I've spent a good chunk of my life helping people with networking issues (and dealing with my own!) — Wi-Fi and otherwise (Ethernet, 10BaseT, Token Ring, others I'd rather forget) — but pretty much anyone can stick a cable into a hole. If it were that simple, it would be easier to use when away from home, not having to setup an ad-hoc network. Everybody has a USB cable for charging anyway, right? :)

    However, iOS does pose some challenges in this area (though I'm grateful for the benefits to platform security). iTunes Filesharing is a thing, but that can be pretty clunky. I was really hopeful that we'd see some more movement on the platform in iOS 12 with regard to filesystem stuff, but unless I've missed something it looks like there isn't much new in that area since iOS 11. Still, we're always evaluating options. Even though this isn't something we're working on today, it helps to keep abreast of the possibilities for any eventuality.

    So I guess my question would be how many hoops are you willing to jump through? Would iOS Filesharing be a bridge too far? What if we made changes to the backup/restore feature in 1Password for iOS to accommodate this use case? I'm not 100% certain it's feasible (or reasonable to expect users to do that), but just throwing it out there.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @AlwaysSortaCurious: Thanks for your comments. I always enjoy disagreeing with you! :lol:

    Joking aside, we're not perfect. While I know the effort myself and others are making to understand where people are coming from in this case, we don't always listen as well as we should. I find it's much easier to get a clear sense of what people want in cases like this where there's a lot of investment. Other times, people can say things like "it's unintuitive", and it's hard to get a read on exactly what they're struggling with and how we could help. So I enjoy the WLAN Server conversation because it's so clear cut: pretty much everyone here has a strong opinion and knows what they want. But while that's satisfying as far as communication, it's probably equally unsatisfying that we're not able to give a more affirmative response (like, "Sure, we'll add that feature"), apart from listening, asking questions, and acknowledging everyone's position once we understand them.

    So while I agree with you that it's pretty rare to be able to engage like this a company, and I wish I had that experience more as a customer myself, I guess I have to disagree with you a bit too ( ;) ): I think it's maybe a little bit less special that we engage like this, because we wouldn't even have the opportunity if our customers didn't engage with us. Goldberg could have started this thread and no one could have ever commented on it. But that's not what happened. We're really lucky in that regard. I know how much this means to these folks, and it means a lot to me that they're willing to engage with us in this dialogue, especially given we don't have the answer they want to hear at this time. :blush:

  • @brenty

    I have no problem with a cable sync, but Apple is planning to remove all physical interfaces in the future ... ;)

  • @brenty : So I guess my question would be how many hoops are you willing to jump through? Would iOS Filesharing be a bridge too far? What if we made changes to the backup/restore feature in 1Password for iOS to accommodate this use case? I'm not 100% certain it's feasible (or reasonable to expect users to do that), but just throwing it out there.

    I WOULD USE LITERALLY ANYTHING THAT IS NOT CONNECTING TO THE INTERNET

    Seriously. Anything you do no matter how complicated (STILL HAS TO ALLOW SYNCYING - checks compatibility to avoid repetition) that offers offline sync I will use. I will pay for it. I will write to you every day to thank you. I will do anything....

    I bought 1Password 7 expecting to have WLAN sync. Then I found out I don't. The whole reason I wanted standalone licenses was to stay offline - WLAN sync. I do not see other reasons to want it.

    You are the only software company in existence that I gave money to and then actively and often have to beg for a feature. Not because other companies are helpful and you are not....it is because I care about this so much..........I could have dropped you years ago and find offline syncing somewhere else.......we all could have. Instead I sit here every other day reading through comments hoping to find this one word, this one sentence that you slipped and promised offline sync so I can then take it and say it to you every hour till you release the feature........And I am the client......I pay for the exclusive privilege of begging you.....You have no idea how sad you are making me...

    I am really busy....and I still take the time to do it. I am not sure you realize how much people want this. We might not be many but this so important for us I cannot really describe it. It is extremely frustrating and physically painful to watch daily how I am being dismissed and told that no matter what I do, no matter what I say, no matter how much money I give, no matter who I speak to, no matter how many comments I write, no matter if I subscribe to the newsletter, no matter if I literary beg you, you will not help me. You understand the importance of this and you still refuse to help me. I am just getting depressed by all of this....

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    I have no problem with a cable sync, but Apple is planning to remove all physical interfaces in the future ... ;)

    @Gerhard87: I hope not, but I wouldn't rule it out completely. :lol: Thanks for weighing in! :)

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    I WOULD USE LITERALLY ANYTHING THAT IS NOT CONNECTING TO THE INTERNET
    Seriously. Anything you do no matter how complicated (STILL HAS TO ALLOW SYNCYING - checks compatibility to avoid repetition) that offers offline sync I will use. I will pay for it. I will write to you every day to thank you. I will do anything....

    @UanPassw0rd: Got it! Thanks for letting us know. :)

    I bought 1Password 7 expecting to have WLAN sync. Then I found out I don't. The whole reason I wanted standalone licenses was to stay offline - WLAN sync. I do not see other reasons to want it.

    I hear you. There are definitely other reasons (or we wouldn't have had anyone asking for and then purchasing the standalone version), but it definitely depends on the use case.

    You are the only software company in existence that I gave money to and then actively and often have to beg for a feature. Not because other companies are helpful and you are not....it is because I care about this so much..........I could have dropped you years ago and find offline syncing somewhere else.......we all could have. Instead I sit here every other day reading through comments hoping to find this one word, this one sentence that you slipped and promised offline sync so I can then take it and say it to you every hour till you release the feature........And I am the client......I pay for the exclusive privilege of begging you.....You have no idea how sad you are making me...

    I'm sorry about that. I truly am. We've got folks here who started using 1Password in the first place because it had a local option, and of course those of us who've been using 1Password since the beginning have some nostalgia for that since it was once all we had. But we're not in a position where we can do everything, so we do need to prioritize what we work on, and focus on things that will make the most impact for the greatest number of users. Right now, WLAN Server is not something we can justify prioritizing.

    I am really busy....and I still take the time to do it. I am not sure you realize how much people want this. We might not be many but this so important for us I cannot really describe it. It is extremely frustrating and physically painful to watch daily how I am being dismissed and told that no matter what I do, no matter what I say, no matter how much money I give, no matter who I speak to, no matter how many comments I write, no matter if I subscribe to the newsletter, no matter if I literary beg you, you will not help me. You understand the importance of this and you still refuse to help me. I am just getting depressed by all of this....

    You're not being dismissed. We definitely realize how much some people want WLAN Server, but we cannot — and should not — do everything that we're asked. Every feature request is important to the person making it. Yours is important in that regard, but no more than someone else's. Comments help us gauge interest and understand the reasons why people want a feature. But more comments from a few people don't equal more users, and they also don't make other work disappear so we can do this specific thing. Your feature request is heard, but it is one of many that we receive on a daily basis. If the tables were turned and you wanted something that was a more popular request, but we didn't do it because someone else begged us to work on a less popular one, that wouldn't feel good either. I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us, but please don't if it causes you pain. That isn't a resource we can harness to make it happen. :(

  • I WOULD USE LITERALLY ANYTHING THAT IS NOT CONNECTING TO THE INTERNET

    @UanPassw0rd One word: KeePass. Once you get past migrating your 1Password vault to it, it's smooth sailing.

    And to @brenty and @jpgoldberg ...

    You're not being dismissed.

    Really? Because this thread reads like that's what you're doing. People keep explaining their reasons, expressing their concerns, and you repeatedly dismiss them.

    There have been literally thousands of corporate data breaches, most of which occurred to companies with cybersecurity teams who probably thought they were taking security seriously and had a rock solid security model -- rock solid.

    Also, @jpgoldberg and @brenty , when you say something like this about a local sync option in 1Password: "Private users don't care about this feature because syncing using a cloud is far more convenient," all I can think about are the dozen or so people I personally convinced to use 1Password over the years by explaining WLAN sync in 1Password vs. other password managers that relied on cloud syncing.

    Most. People. Don't. Understand. The. Cloud. They don't know what they want until you explain the options to them. -------> And I'm convinced that over time as more and more people get burned by data breaches, more and more people will care about the distinction between local and cloud.

    But yeah, please proceed to dismiss the concerns in this thread.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member
    edited June 2018

    Really? Because this thread reads like that's what you're doing. People keep explaining their reasons, expressing their concerns, and you repeatedly dismiss them.

    @kermit4karate: I'm sorry, but if you think anyone who doesn't do exactly what you say is being dismissive, I'm not sure what else to tell you.

    There have been literally thousands of corporate data breaches, most of which occurred to companies with cybersecurity teams who probably thought they were taking security seriously and had a rock solid security model -- rock solid.

    Again:

    Because that's the reality we're dealing with here. The rest is hyperbole.

    Also, @jpgoldberg and @brenty , when you say something like this about a local sync option in 1Password: "Private users don't care about this feature because syncing using a cloud is far more convenient," all I can think about are the dozen or so people I personally convinced to use 1Password over the years by explaining WLAN sync in 1Password vs. other password managers that relied on cloud syncing.

    Sorry, we didn't say that. Another user did. And I disagreed with that statement.

    Most. People. Don't. Understand. The. Cloud. They don't know what they want until you explain the options to them. -------> And I'm convinced that over time as more and more people get burned by data breaches, more and more people will care about the distinction between local and cloud.

    I'm sure you're right. That's why we don't have the keys to people's data: so they cannot be stolen from us in the case of a breach.

    But yeah, please proceed to dismiss the concerns in this thread.

    Take care.

  • Just to add my two-pence-worth, I have been a 1Password user on the Apple side of things for some considerable time now. It is a great piece of software and has left me more than happy. But I have recently had to switch to Windows and the lack of local sync and the insistence that I have to have an account and send my passwords off to the cloud somewhere, leaves me cold.

    Give you replies in this thread, which have been quite high-handed if not just downright arrogant, it's clear that I have no other option than to ditch 1Password and look elsewhere. Which probably means doing something with KeePass. Great. Thanks.

  • Has anybody at Agilebits looked at any other technologies to do this? I know Webdav is a no-go due to past issues, but what about apple file sharing?

    Apple has solutions to get files between laptops and ios devices. Android has similar ones.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @scott_savarese: We've used iTunes File Sharing for years for 1Password's backup/restore feature on iOS. It's really not a good user experience and very limited, not something that's really usable for syncing unless something changes.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @badvok: I'm sorry to hear that, but if another tool better suits your requirements it's best to use that. 1Password definitely works without an account, but thanks for taking the time to let us know you personally prefer a local sync option.

This discussion has been closed.