Not Understanding v7: WARNING: STUPID QUESTIONS AHEAD
OK 1Password Helpers,
After years of being a licensed 1P guy, and months of putting off the v6 - v7 upgrade, anticipating the worst, yesterday I took the plunge.
OK, so I get that I'm going to have an "account" rather than a "license." I believe I sort of upgraded. I set up a temporary 30-day "family" account, although I forget how. I downloaded v 7.2.1 and ran it, which the instructions somewhere said to do. I guess my passwords are on your website now. But I don't have a clue what's going on.
My [STUPID] questions have probably been asked multiple times, but, sorry, I don't have time to scour the forum for answers. I'm going to be patient with the v7 learning curve and ask that you be patient with me. (BTW, if you want me to do this via email or other means, let me know.) So let's get on with it.
Background: I got login credentials to, I dunno, my1Password.com. I put in my email and my "Secret Key" and my "Master Password" and voila, I'm in -- to something. I'm not sure what. What I see looks very much like my v6 stuff, except that it's online.
STUPID QUESTION #1: So if what I'm looking at is my online "account," what is the relationship between the credentials used for that, and those used for this forum? They're not the same, right? So this "discussions" forum (is that what it's called? or "Support Forum?") has a whole other login than that for my account.
Is that right?
-Mark
P.S. Thanks in advance for your help, folks!
1Password Version: 7.2.1
Extension Version: 4.7.3.90
OS Version: 10.13.6
Sync Type: Dropbox
Comments
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It may seem odd at first, but discussion and support forums often have separate credentials from those for the main app.
I've many times joined a forum to learn about an app or online site before deciding to make a purchase, which is one reason they need separate credentials.
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danco, do you work here?
I don't know what a Community Moderator is.
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Huh.
Most of my stupid questions were answered here:
I, uh, kind of got v7 working. Wow. OK.
Let me play with v7 'cause I'm sure I'll have more stupid questions.
-Mark
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Reasonable question. No, the only people working for AgileBits have this noted to the right of their posts. Community moderators are people who have enough experience with 1PW and answering questions on the forum that AgileBits have given us certain privileges and duties For instance, if someone had posted information on the forum that ought to be private (such as their phone number) I could remove it.
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Hi @markbot.
danco is a 1Password customer who helps us here on the discussion forum. He volunteers his time and is not on the payroll. He has been given the Community Moderator role because he has proven to be very knowledgeable about 1Password and has assisted a number of fellow customers. The title also allows him to help us moderate the forum.
Ben
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I have to say that not only is the v6 - v7 "membership" upgrade brutally confusing (Oh Dear God, why did I bother?) so is this forum.
Danco, if I ask a yes/no question, please answer with a yes/no. Keep it simple. And since your role on this site is ambiguous, may I suggest you get a more official looking icon and that you identify what a "Community Moderator" is?
(is that a stupid question?; I'm not sure...)
I see that many users here, like me, are confused by and don't like how simple Attachments in v6 morphed into bizarro, weirdly named "Documents" in v7 void of any evident context. Now supposedly you can "link" documents to logins in v7 but for the life of me I don't see how. As it is, with 90 "Documents" this is probably going to be a tedious task at best, and I'm not thrilled about it.
As far as I can tell, there is no documentation about it, including here:
https://support.1password.com/migrate-1password-account/
STUPID QUESTION #3: Is there a Knowledgebase article or some other tutorial where I can learn how to "link" Documents to Logins?
STUPID QUESTION #4: At one point, the 1Password Add-On (4.7.3.90) icon in my FireFox (62.0.3) became greyed out and did not work. Following the advice in another question here in Support, I rebooted and it worked. Is this a known bug and is there any way to avoid this in the future?
So let's leave it at two stupid questions and see what happens...
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There was a change in how attachments / documents had to be managed with the advent of the cloud-based 1Password accounts. This created the UI challenges you faced during migration. They are trying to make Document management better, but its a process.
Danco did answer your question within the first three words of his reply (Reasonable question. No,...). I think that was a reasonable reply - it immediately addressed what you asked, and then expanded to give more info. There's nothing wrong with that.
Communications venues (forums, boards, chat rooms, etc.) all have their standards, protocols and accepted practices. It's up to new members to learn these, not for existing members to educate each and every single person who joins, each with their own confusions and questions - that would be an impossible task.
Re: #3 - Linking an item. Select the item to edit, click Edit, and towards the bottom of that edit screen, click the Link Existing button under Related Items:
Then search for the desired document (or other) and add it, and Save. You'll see it as a clickable item now within that Login.
I'll leave #4 for someone else to address.
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Dear MRC,
Actually, if you'd actually read my original question ("Is that right?") you would have seen that "danco" didn't answer it with a yes or no. So you're wrong.
And your answer ("Re: #3 - Linking an item. Select the edit, click Edit,") is clearly incorrect.
"Select the edit"?
Wrong again.
So it's left up to me to figure out that I have been misinformed, to work out what you really meant, or should have, written. Great.
And since you brought it up, I never asked for "existing members" to educate me about anything, especially with in a condescending and dismissive tone. I am looking for straight answers from 1Password Team Members. Sorry if I have the expectation that I might actually receive them here.
And the short and correct answer to my QUESTION #3 is simply, No. There is no Knowledgebase article or some other tutorial where I can learn how to "link" Documents to Logins.
And that's part of the problem with this forum in particular and Agilebits' support in general. Agilebits has never bothered to provide a proper user manual or guide, just some loose, sketchy "Knowledgebase" pages, and ad hoc questions and answers here from people who may or may not be able to deliver a correct or useful answer. (Oh, and on Twitter. I don't, and never will, use Twitter. So shoot me.)
And to get answers here, you have to stumble around subjects (like "1Password X") that you think might apply to you, but actually don't.
What Agilebits SHOULD HAVE SAID, when advising users about moving from a license to a subscription (if not in a proper user manual) is that all attachments will be detached from their logins and stored, often renamed, as separate documents. And that each document will have to be independently and MANUALLY "linked" back to its login.
And, by the way, when you do try to make a link, the list to choose from includes ALL THE ITEMS IN THE VAULT, SORTED IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER.
For me, 90 documents, 455 items.
Are you serious?
Just for giggles, I'll repeat STUPID QUESTION #4:
STUPID QUESTION #4: At one point, the 1Password Add-On (4.7.3.90) icon in my FireFox (62.0.3) became greyed out and did not work. Following the advice in another question here in Support, I rebooted and it worked. Is this a known bug and is there any way to avoid this in the future?
And we'll see what happens.
-Mark
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Let's not get into the blame and accusation game. Let's try to focus on getting you the help you want.
It would help everyone if you simplify and individualize your requests and feedback, instead of pilling it into one long thread. This causes confusion, makes it hard to follow, and makes it hard to respond.
The "Select the edit" was a simple typo - it was supposed to read Select to edit. I will correct that above. It happens.
I don't know if there is a KB article about what you asked - hence I cannot answer No definitively and I didn't notice one so cannot answer Yes. Please leave some room for uncertainty, and a good faith effort to try to help you help yourself.
Agilebits has informed users that Attachments will convert to Documents:
https://support.1password.com/migrate-1password-account/
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@markbot - I'm sorry you're finding the upgrade process confusing.
Danco, if I ask a yes/no question, please answer with a yes/no. Keep it simple. And since your role on this site is ambiguous, may I suggest you get a more official looking icon and that you identify what a "Community Moderator" is?
I wouldn't say that's a "stupid question," but also think "Community Moderator" is relatively self-explanatory. Employees of 1Password, like myself and Ben, will have the 1Password logo and the orange "Team Member" designation. Anyone without that is a user like yourself, so please don't instruct fellow users how to reply to you. They're volunteering their time in an effort to help other users, as both Ben and danco already explained to you.
MrC's explanation of the need to switch from direct attachments to Documents in 1Password accounts is exactly right. Click "Edit" on any item, then click either "Link Existing" to link to a Document already in your 1Password database, or "Add New File" to import a new external file as a Document, and link to it from the record you have open. If you want to link both ways, open the Document in question, click "Edit" and link back to the other item.You should not have to regularly reboot either 1Password 7 for Mac or Firefox in order to get the extension working again. I'm glad a restart solved it this time; let us know if you have any further trouble with it.
By the way, I want to make clear that you did not need to create a 1Password.com membership to upgrade from version 6 to version 7 of 1Password for Mac. We are still selling standalone licenses for 1Password 7, and if you'd prefer to purchase one of those directly at the launch special pricing of $49.99, that would have been fine -- and still would be fine. Let us know if you'd like to pursue that option.
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Update: I'm wrong about one thing. At least some of my former attachments have been converted to documents and are indeed linked back to their "parent" logins under the "Related Items" header.
So I don't have to re-do them manually.
So kindly excuse that part of my rant.
However, I still maintain that the paucity of documentation about this issue, and many others, is leading to unnecessary confusion and frustration. I apologize to MRC. He or she did try to help, and made, well, a human error. But what should be available is some formal, well-vetted documentation that he or she can refer a user like me to.
I don't understand how an otherwise tight ship like Agilebits cannot see why this would be helpful -- indispensible -- and, in the long run, save much time for both their users, helpers and employees.
Honestly, the people here are trying their best to be helpful, I get that. And in spite of everything, I appreciate it.
I really want to like v7, I think it has a lot to offer, and I realize there's a learning curve. But does it really have to be this steep, with no guides to help you up?
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@markbot Sorry if you thought my tone was condescending and dismissive. I certainly never intended to be anything more than simple and straightforward.
Your question 1 began by asking "what is the relationship..." I thought I answered that and indicated that you were right, though I agree I never actually said "you are right".
I also agree with you that "community moderator" does not actually convey anything to most users. Perhaps the term should be changed. But it's certainly not up to me to do this, it would have to be a decision by AgileBits. Do you have any suggestions?
I really only attempted to answer your question 1, as I wasn't sure about the best answer to your later questions.
But while all threads are ultimately responded to by AgileBits staff, members can often answer much faster than staff, because members can pick and choose what to answer whereas staff go strictly from older posts to newer ones. The point of any forum is to allow anyone to answer as they think may be helpful. It is up to the original poster to decide whether they only want to look at replies from staff.
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@markbot - we do have guides for most of the things you might need to do with 1Password, right on our support pages. Most of them include graphical walk-throughs, many include video. The attachment-to-Documents portion is one that isn't covered in detail but that's partly to do with the fact that it doesn't really require much input from the user, though I agree we could do better in that specific area. That's also why these forums exist: to assist users with edge-cases where the processes and documentation in place doesn't, for whatever reason, cover their specific situation. We're happy to help. :)
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Dear Danco,
Thank you for your very gracious reply.
Please forgive me being critical and grumpy.
Re: Community Moderatorship
Rather than an icon perhaps a picture of you? Something to differentiate you from a "standard" user. You're not an employee but you fill a vital role, seems to me.If nothing else, maybe some boilerplate you could cut and paste: "Hi [fill in name]. Thanks for visiting the Support Forum. I'm a Community Moderator, which means I'm a 1Password customer like you, but because of specialized knowledge I am available to help. You may also receive a reply from a 1Password Team Member."
Just a thought.
Regards,
Mark
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Dear Lars,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
The thing about "Documents" is that after I upgraded, the first thing I saw in my Vault was Documents, and lots of them, which I had never heard of. It's a bit of a shock. (If you'll permit me to be blunt: "WTF is THIS? Where are my LOGINS?!") It is true that you do in fact document the conversion of attachments to documents at the very bottom of this:
https://support.1password.com/migrate-1password-account/
It's covered, but just barely. I would make it much more prominent.
Thank you for reminding me that I could upgrade to a v7 license, but after trying to study the merits of membership versus license, I thought a family membership would offer me more flexibility and better value. I get the sense that you're eventually migrating to the membership route only and I'd rather get over the learning curve now.
Quite frankly, I've read many reviews of 1Password users who've migrated to v7 and just couldn't handle the transition, so they ask how to get back to v6. This is kind of scary to read. 1Password isn't just any software, like some word processor or spreadsheet. A lot of us have the equivalent of "The Family Jewels" incorporated into our 1Password database, and have invested a lot of time understanding (mastering?) how everything works. I mean, do you know how hard it was to update to an "Opvault" and sync with Dropbox?
Another example: In the upgrade process, I was sort of invited to delete my "old" data. (I didn't and this became my "Primary" vault.) But the notion of DELETE MY DATA? was a heart-stopper. Delete my Data? What if EVERYTHING SCREWS UP?
During the upgrade, I ran into what appears to be a common problem: the upgrader prompts you to close 1Password entirely, but it hangs at closing Mini. So you can't upgrade and you feel like you're stuck in limbo. Like PANIC STRICKEN. What's going to happen to my stuff? What if I can't get into my data?
The installer has to be fixed. This sort of thing does NOT INSPIRE CONFIDENCE in the product. Most installers just work. You're strongly encouraging people to upgrade, and you have to make it painless (or as painless as possible) and reliable. If the installer can't be fixed, it should at least give a warning and INCLUDE THE INSTRUCTIONS THAT YOU GIVE PEOPLE HERE in the forum (to hold down the control/option keys or whatever it is) as to how to proceed.
As it was, I was forced to log in here and scramble around to find out how to quit Mini. This is more than annoying and sloppy, and it gives the unfortunate impression that the company doesn't really care about getting it right the first time. To say nothing of the fact that you have to answer the same question here in the forum over and over.
I'm rambling. That's enough for now.
Thanks for listening!
:-)
-Mark
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@markbot - thanks for the feedback. It's helpful in understanding where we might be able to improve.
In the upgrade process, I was sort of invited to delete my "old" data. (I didn't and this became my "Primary" vault.) But the notion of DELETE MY DATA? was a heart-stopper. Delete my Data? What if EVERYTHING SCREWS UP?
Then you'd have every backup you've ever made of your standalone setup available to you to restore. :) We really do understand the importance of the data people store inside 1Password, and that's why we're not going to leave people in the lurch, or recommend they do something we haven't tested and thought through ourselves. We're certainly not perfect, but if users aren't willing to trust that we've thought through our own upgrade processes, they can often wind up getting themselves into more trouble than would have been possible if they simply followed the directions.
Beyond that, we're here to help, pretty much 24/7. If people have questions or issues, we've got answers and assistance. We urge anyone who's still uncertain about taking this or that leap, or finds our instructions or documentation confusing, to contact us first.
If you still have a Primary vault, I'd recommend removing it, as this will likely cause confusion down the road. There is no need to keep a Primary vault around once you've set up a 1password.com account - and that goes double if you've copied your data over into your 1password.com account but retained a copy in your Primary vault as well because "you don't want to lose your data." I really do get the intention, and the misgiving, but in the case I just mentioned, a user who does this is actually creating problems for him or herself by keeping two identical copies of the data in two separate vaults, one standalone and one online at 1password.com. First of all, there are the duplicates: clicking All Vaults result in seeing two copies of everything because there are two copies of everything. And those two copies start out identical, but over time if a user isn't careful about which copy of various data (s)he updates, there will be different new/edited/deleted data in BOTH places, resulting in the two becoming more dissimilar over time, and making it an enormous headache to try to reconcile later. Had that Primary vault just been removed in the first place, after the initial copying of data, none of these potential problems would even exist.
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