[Feature Request] Sync any location (or add support for Owncloud)

scottjlscottjl Junior Member

This isn't really Mac specific, but I'd like the ability to save my sync files to a custom location. In my case I'd like to save it to a directory in Owncloud, which is synced to my Windows and iOS devices. Guess it would be more work to have the iOS client be able to pick up the changes from Owncloud iOS, maybe use WebDAV in that case? I just don't want to be forced to use Dropbox.


1Password Version: 5
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: OSX, Windows, iOS, Android
Sync Type: Anything BUT Dropbox

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Comments

  • JacobJacob

    Team Member
    edited October 2015

    Hey @scottjl! It is currently possible to sync 1Password to a custom location like ownCloud using Folder Sync on your Mac. This is only available on Mac at the moment, though, and syncing your data to Android and iOS using ownCloud is not supported.

    Guess it would be more work to have the iOS client be able to pick up the changes from Owncloud iOS, maybe use WebDAV in that case?

    We've received some requests for WebDAV in the past. We appreciate the feedback on this one and I'll add your request as well.

    Alternatively, you can use WiFi Sync to keep everything in sync locally. It's a good alternative to Dropbox if you want to keep things a bit more local and on your own terms. It also works across all platforms. :)

    Hope that helps!

  • scottjlscottjl Junior Member

    I need something that would also sync to Windows. OwnCloud would work for Windows as well. I'm aware of WiFi Sync, but I'm guessing that is only real-time when everything is in range together? I'll look into it more. Thanks.

    Please add me to the WebDAV request, it would really allow me to set up the best solution for me. Thanks!

  • JacobJacob

    Team Member
    edited October 2015

    @scottjl

    I'm aware of WiFi Sync, but I'm guessing that is only real-time when everything is in range together?

    Yes, both devices must be on the same WiFi network for this to work. It would work with Windows as well. The only other sync solution on Windows at the moment is Dropbox.

    I've added your request for WebDAV. I can't promise anything, but there are quite a few users who have asked for it in the past and another voice always helps shed light on things. ;)

  • ownCloud file sync support across all devices would be ideal.

    Think of the user with OSX, Windows, and a phone:
    1) You set up Wifi Sync on the phone for the Mac
    2) You sync things with the shared secret, so now 2 of 3 devices done but not necessarily up to date (since the PC may have new items)
    3) You have to disable Wifi Sync then add the PC because [for whatever reason!?] you can only have one
    4) You have to sync the PC with it's secret
    5) Now you have to repeat steps 3, 1, and 2 to sync the Mac for the PC changes.

    So, I've manually done eight things every time I need to sync. Clearly someone doesn't value my time.

    If you have a central ownCloud database file and had all the devices sync against that, they could just sync in the background when I walk into Wifi range. Or even if it was a manual button, at least I wouldn't have to turn things on and off like some kind of monkey.

    Yes, I realize I can use iCloud or some of the other sync destinations. But in practice, iCloud is not really that different than ownCloud or any other authenticated disk you need to write to.

  • JacobJacob

    Team Member

    Hey @jcm808,

    Thank you for such a detailed response to this. I've made a note of your request for our developers. Suggestions of how the syncing method could be integrated are always appreciated — it gives us a better idea of how people will use it in the real world, which is incredibly helpful. It's also good to have a quick summary of what ownCloud means to you as a user, rather than just as a product. Thanks again for posting this. :)

    ref: OPM-1647

  • Is there any news when WebDAV Sync will be included?

    With WebDAV as cental storage, syncing becomes as easy like a Mail client accessing Imap or Exchange server. On premise.

    I really can't imagine why you don't give us this feature!? Why Dropbox? Why iCloud? Both are storage places which a user/admin can't trust, because the file is out of control of the owner after it's saved. End of control.
    The Password container file is ready to be brute forced and/or someone only need to wait if there is any security hole. Exactly no encryption method is secure. You can see it with RC5, SHA-1 ...

    Then we have Wifi sync. Ok, my 1Password Container never leaves my own storage places. But it's a mess to handle with many devices like my MacBook, Mac mini, iPhone, iPad... you also never will sync your mail clients in a manner you give us Wifi sync...

    There are so many WebDAV services out there which are transfer Gigabytes of files and you're the only company who says you can't do reliable WebDAV sync. My 1Password container backup is not more than 300 KBytes. Sorry, but this is laughable.

  • Hello @webdav_sync,

    Neither penderworth nor I were around at the time so all I know is what I'm told of the attempt. I doubt it was about the throughput achievable by large files and instead is more likely to related to latency and the read/write of multiple files given the Agile Keychain is made up of individual files for each item or folder in your vault. There would also be the issue of conflict resolution as both Dropbox and iCloud handle much of this for us. While the OPVault format would reduce the issue of number of small files it highlights the conflict resolution issue given bands are potentially more likely to be in conflict. It's not to suggest its an insurmountable issue at all, but it would require a very different solution given the current one works with what the services provide. WebDAV hasn't been revisited since the previous attempt so there is no ETA at the moment or even a timeframe for when it would be looked at again. We aren't saying no to the addition of other sync services but these will take time to add and they fight for the same resources as all other feature requests and bugs. The development of 1Password for Teams was by no means insignificant so our developers are looking forward to when they can spend some time on areas that they feel have been a bit neglected of late.

  • scottjlscottjl Junior Member

    It's interesting all the resistance to support saving in another location. It's not just support for WebDAV, but allowing one to save the keychain file elsewhere could allow someone to save it in any sort of network share, WebDAV, SMB mount, NFS mount, USB drive, etc. As with others, I simply don't want to rely on, or trust, some 3rd party with my keychain, Dropbox especially. Apple at least has come out supporting their customers privacy and security, but for how long? Development for Teams was a nice addition, but does nothing for the personal user.

  • Drew_AGDrew_AG 1Password Alumni

    Hi @scottjl,

    It's interesting all the resistance to support saving in another location. It's not just support for WebDAV, but allowing one to save the keychain file elsewhere could allow someone to save it in any sort of network share...

    There's no resistance to saving the sync file in another location - as penderworth mentioned a few months ago, you can use the Folder Sync option to do that. That can be used to sync your 1Password data between Macs as well as Windows PCs. (If you also have 1Password on iOS or Android devices, you can use Wi-Fi Sync.)

    Development for Teams was a nice addition, but does nothing for the personal user.

    I believe littlebobbytables was just using that as an example of how we don't have unlimited resources. 1Password for Teams was (and still is) a huge project for our developers, but that doesn't mean they aren't working on anything else. But we do receive a lot of feature requests from customers and unfortunately we just can't add them all. When a new feature or setting is added, the decision to do so is based largely on which ones are requested the most, although there are certainly other factors as well. Adding support for other sync services is more complicated than it may seem, but our developers will continue to investigate that, and hopefully we'll have more options for you in the future.

  • I believe littlebobbytables was just using that as an example of how we don't have unlimited resources.

    I can't believe that. Several one-person developer syncs Gigabytes of files from/to iOS without problems:
    http://www.notebooksapp.com
    https://photosync-app.com
    https://owncloud.com/products/mobileapps/

    Even my Online banking app syncs flawlessly between my Macs and iOS:
    https://subsembly.com/de/banking.html
    I just need to give URL, user + password and even all settings are configured.

    Then there is my main file explorer App on iOS, Readdle Documents, which can sync even with FTP, SFTP and SMB server. And WebDAV:
    https://readdle.com/products/documents

    The Apps aren't new, I know and use them for years. It's so common to sync own personal data into an own personal storage.

    And then there is Agilebits. 3 years ago I first suggest WebDAV sync in your old forum. What happens? Nothing. Now we read about the release of 1Password for Teams. I'm shocked: even 1Password for Teams is a cloud-based service and can't run on-premise. And it's overkill for a single person, who wants to sync his personal devices comfortably. Even on iOS.

    Btw, 1Password for Teams is a failure, at least in Germany. If I suggest my IT boss to save our passwords on a cloud service, they throw me out of the company. After 1 second.

  • dtearedteare Agile Founder

    Team Member

    Hello @webdav_sync,

    You're totally right, we could indeed add WebDAV sync. It's certainly possible and in fact we even implemented WebDAV Sync once and the performance was so bad that we decided to abandon it and never shipped it. This was during the MobileMe era and shortly thereafter Apple replaced it entirely with iCloud.

    We have no plans on introducing WebDAV sync and I don't see this changing. Having a full server like 1Password for Teams allows us to do many more things than WebDAV would allow, and it's much much faster as well.

    I'm curious to understand your rationale behind your statements about 1Password for Teams. It sounds like you and your German employer both want to manage your own servers, is this correct? If so, would a self-hosted edition of 1Password for Teams satisfy your requirements?

  • scottjlscottjl Junior Member

    So what I'm guessing what it comes down to, is AgileBits doesn't see any profit in developing WebDAV, so they aren't going to bother. Disappointing, but understandable. Implementing Dropbox, iCloud, etc. can't be significantly easier than implementing WebDAV, and your development staff was up to the task of coding your own sync solution with Teams, surely they have the skills to do WebDAV. Obviously there's some other, undisclosed, reasons and you're not going to budge.

    The biggest argument for a solution like WebDAV, and against Teams/Dropbox/iCloud, is simply that there is no guaranteed security with 3rd party hosting, look at all the big names hacked these days. I'm sure, though I haven't read, the 1 Password EULA clearly states AgileBits is free from any liability should Teams servers get hacked and someone copies down your AgileBits hosted Teams stored passwords. This reason alone should scare off companies, and individuals, from using it. A self-hosted Teams server might help alleviate this, but until this mythological software exists it's hard to say for sure.

    I like 1 Password, I've been using it for years, but it's certainly a feature I will look for in the competition.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    Hey @scottjl,

    So what I'm guessing what it comes down to, is AgileBits doesn't see any profit in developing WebDAV, so they aren't going to bother.

    I don't think that there is any argument that there is a much larger user base that is comfortable setting up iCloud or Dropbox when compared to WebDAV. Also, as Dave mentioned:

    we even implemented WebDAV Sync once and the performance was so bad that we decided to abandon it

    It'd be a real shame if we spent a bunch of development resources focused on WebDAV (again) only to find the performance still isn't up to par, and have to ditch the project (again).

    Also, it is worth noting that while we do not natively support WebDAV within 1Password, and likely won't, if it is a killer feature for you it is possible to set it up. You'd need to set up folder sync (noting the warning) to your local file system and then use a 3rd party utility that can sync from your local file system to a WebDAV server. That would limit your syncing to desktop platforms, but then you can also use WiFi sync to sync one Mac with one or more mobile devices.

    should Teams servers get hacked and someone copies down your AgileBits hosted Teams stored passwords.

    Just like with the existing 1Password apps your 1Password for Teams data is encrypted using your Master Password. Not only would someone have to break into our servers they would also have to obtain your Master Password (and account key).

    More 1Password for Teams security info.

    Thanks.

    Ben

  • scottjlscottjl Junior Member

    If there's a performance issue saving to WebDAV, isn't that an issue with 1 Password? If the WebDAV server has performance issues, that's my problem but 1 Password would be working correctly.

    Folder + WiFi sync is a hassle, as everyone has noted.

    I understand my data is encrypted with my Master Password. If I use a weak password, that's my problem. But security on your web site is not under my control and therefore you're a liability in that chain. As I mentioned, we read weekly about large organizations being unable to keep determined hackers out, even your competition LastPass has been hacked. How long before AgileBits is a target, if it isn't already, and what guarantees are there on security, and liability? If I, or my company, runs their own WebDAV server, those issues are in our hands and not a 3rd party.

    I understand why you did Teams, it's a revenue stream, and I understand why WebDAV isn't on your list, there's no revenue stream for it. I'm sure you'd cut out Dropbox and iCloud support if you could justify it.

  • dtearedteare Agile Founder

    Team Member

    Sounds like a self-hosted version of teams would work well for you. As you say we have to release it first :)

    We're still in beta and want to get to the big 1.0 before we start considering features like self-hosting, but it's great to know there's interest there.

  • edited January 2016

    Sounds like a self-hosted version of teams would work well for you.

    Not teams. I'm an individual. It must be affordable (price) and installable like installing Apache Webserver, Owncloud or enable WebDAV from NAS web configuration.

    And I'm pretty sure you're unable to serve all user wishes with a self-hosted version of your "Team-Server".

    My Server runs on a NAS with ARM v6 CPU. Other ones run on a Raspberry Pi 1 with Raspbian Linux distribution installed. 3rd users runs Raspberry Pi 2 with Ubuntu 15.04 installed. A 4th user use her old Intel Atom running FreeBSD.
    Some other user doesn't care about electricity costs and want to run your Team Server on a full loaded i7 / 32GB RAM / Windows Server 2012R2 to sync some Kilobytes of 1Password data from time to time, even if this is a decadent way of syncing some Kilobytes of Password entries.

    And why? Only because you don't want to give us an easy and technical very possible way to sync via WebDAV, which is a RFC standard.

  • dtearedteare Agile Founder

    Team Member

    Thanks for getting back to me @webdav_sync.

    I appreciate where you're coming from. You're a very technical user and you'd be fine setting up your own WebDAV and making sure it performs well. And you're right, we absolutely could add WebDAV syncing and as I mentioned we already did implement it using MobileMe and we found the performance so atrocious that we never shipped it.

    To do what you're saying we'd need to add more preferences, more documentation, and more complication in general. I have no worries about you and everyone else in this thread setting it up properly, but it comes at a cost for many other users and it would consume more of my developer's time as well.

    I could easily say yes to WebDAV; saying yes is the easy to running a company. The hard part is saying no so you can keep your focus. As a founder and company leader, this is something I wrestle with every day. I want to be nice and say yes, but I need to keep my company focused and so I need to say no. It brings me no pleasure saying "no" but I don't think WebDAV is the right technology for AgileBits to pursue.

    Here's a video from Steve Job's in 1997 that I like to watch frequently to remind myself of the importance of this:

    "Focusing is about saying no" - Steve Jobs (WWDC'97)

    Steve Jobs killed MobileMe, and part of that was because the WebDAV technology wasn't an amazing silver bullet for Apple's users. Combined with my feelings towards WebDAV, I just don't see us ever going down this road.

  • edited January 2016

    @dteare: ok, thank you for this information. This must be accepted. I tried a lot ;) to convince you ;) and sorry to be sometimes harsh. For me I really like 1Password. If I don't like it I'd don't waste my time to write arguments for a must-have and in these days a common feature.

    But one more (last) thing before leaving this forum...

    and part of that was because the WebDAV technology wasn't an amazing silver bullet for Apple's users

    Apple use until now WebDAV in iCloud. iCloud isn't a protocol, iCloud are different type of services. Apple uses WebDAV for their calendar and contact services. Calendar and Todo are synced with CalDAV, contacts with CardDAV.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CardDAV
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CalDAV

    If you don't trust me, just simple search for iCloud, CalDAV, CardDAV. I don't think Apple use WebDAV because performance is atrocious. And I'm pretty sure Apple serves not only a few calendar and contact entries.

    Now something about the technical side. What is a contact entry? A contact entry is for example first name, last name, company name, phone number 1, phone number 2, mail address 1, address 2, birthday and so on.
    What is a 1Password entry? If I add an identity I see exactly the same data fields like in my contact app!? Or short: I can't find any technical difference or a huge difference in data size. My calendar entries are 100x more than my 1Password entries.

    It's ok if you don't want to include WebDAV as a server source. But I'm a disappointed if I read reasons that are technically not true.

    Syncing 1Password between my Mac mini, Macbook, iPhone and iPad becomes a monkey job every month.
    On the other side I see every day my other apps running flawlessly other services that are always in-sync. Like Mail, Calendars, Contacts, ToDo, Notes, Bank account, even large PDF Documents are in-sync. I need to start it. It just works.

    Most of this services uses WebDAV on the server side. Mail and Notes use Imap.

    This guy implements reading a 1Password container file from ... a WebDAV server:
    http://appshopper.com/productivity/toopassword

    That's all. I spent a lot of time to find the right words because english isn't my mother language. Thank you.

  • Hi @webdav_sync,

    Dave may well want to respond to your points himself, there were two (slightly) off-topic points I wanted to address.

    As far as I'm concerned your English is that of a native speaker. Actually that's a bit unfair, it's a lot better than many native speakers I've known. I would say you've done a fine job of expressing yourself.

    This leads me onto the next point I wanted to remark on. Although it would seem unlikely that we'll be seeing support for WebDAV I (all of us really) love that you're passionate about 1Password. People like you do help shape 1Password so please never stop being passionate.

    I know Dave loves our passionate users so I don't feel like I'm speaking out of line here when I say this :smile:

  • edited January 2016

    @dteare

    I just want to add one more drop into discussion. 1password and LastPass are two most used apps for storing credentials. The difference between them two is that LastPass uses could storage for credentials and 1password does not. It is up to user responsibility to securely sync data to all his/hers devices. This means that 1password will be used by more experienced users that want to have control over their data.

    Allowing to sync 1password with all devices only using Dropbox makes 1password and LastPass the equal in my eyes.

    So then there is no reason to pay for owning 1password license over paying a LastPass subscription, because in both cases credentials are in cloud. Ony difference is that LastPass is super simple to set-up thanks to its cloudy architecture.

    This makes no sense to me, because it breaks what 1password is in my eyes. For me 1password means that I have my data under my control. The philosophy of 1password plays well with NAS storages (like e.g. Synology).

    Am I getting something wrong? Isn't 1password what I thought it is? Thanks! Jan Kuchař, Czech Republic

    //EDIT: And definitely on-premise Teams solves my problem. It would be cool just to buy one license and be able to use 1password on Mac, Windows and sync it with on-premise Teams. (all behing firewall strategy) On Synology NAS it is super easy to install packages (basically same like on iOS). Or universal solution can be to provide deb package or docker container.

  • dtearedteare Agile Founder

    Team Member

    Hi @honzakuchar,

    First, I just gotta say, there are a helluvalotta more differences than just cloud vs. non-cloud. I'm not doing to distract from this conversation but I couldn't talk about sync options without first getting that off my chest :)

    You're right that 1Password's philosophy of you being in complete control of your data fits quite well with NAS storage and WebDAV and many other sync solutions. Indeed we support more sync solutions than anyone else and they cover the complete spectrum (Teams with it's cloud approach, Dropbox & iCloud for 3rd party sync support, and Wi-Fi for never-leaves-my-network-ever approach).

    So while I agree with you that we could push this philosophy even further by adding support for even more solutions, they all come at a cost. A cost to UX complexity, a cost to development time, and an increased cost to our support team who need to become experts at even more things. The last one should not be underestimated as it's probably the largest cost overall and it's a constant ongoing cost.

    I'm not saying we're never adding more sync solutions as there are some that get a lot of votes from our users (Microsoft's OneDrive comes to mind), but in the short term, we're pretty happy with the balance we've struck with our 4 sync solutions.

    I hope that helps explain where I'm coming from. I know it's not the answer you really wanted to hear, but again, I'm reminded of Steve Job's focus speech :)

  • I also would be very happy to have an OwnCloud support. It would be the easiest way to share my family tresor with all family members. Dropbox is not an option, because i want to have my data in my hands.

  • rickfillionrickfillion Junior Member

    Team Member

    Thanks for the feedback, @JensHildebrandt.

    Rick

  • siegelsupportsiegelsupport Junior Member

    +1 OwnCloud Support its important!

  • rickfillionrickfillion Junior Member

    Team Member

    Thanks @siegelsupport.

    Rick

  • minuteminute
    edited March 2016

    +1 OwnCloud Sync!

  • Drew_AGDrew_AG 1Password Alumni

    Thanks for letting us know, @minute!

    In case you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend reading this response from Dave from earlier in this thread. That doesn't necessarily mean we'll never add support for OwnCloud, but it does a good job of explaining why something like that is easier said than done. I'll be glad to let our developers know you'd like 1Password to support OwnCloud.

    If you need anything else, please let us know! :)

  • +1 for OwnCloud.

    Not that it means very much... for what I can see, there are literally a dozen pages based in a bunch of different threads, each in their own with countless "+1 for OwnCloud support" over and over. It seems that you are directly ignoring your user-base on this one.

    Say it ain't so? Then add the support. That your customers have been asking for. For years now.

  • Drew_AGDrew_AG 1Password Alumni

    Hi @Stonemage,

    Thank you for taking the time to let us know you'd like to have support for OwnCloud in 1Password!

    It seems that you are directly ignoring your user-base on this one.

    Actually, if you've looked through this and other threads on this subject, you've no doubt noticed that we always reply to our customers who post similar requests. So, by definition, we're not ignoring our user-base at all! In fact, if you look through the replies in this discussion, you'll see a few from 'dteare' - that's Dave, who co-founded AgileBits and 1Password. If that's not a sign that we're paying attention, I don't know what is. ;)

    However, just because a lot of customers ask for a feature doesn't mean we'll necessarily add it. Don't get me wrong - we truly appreciate receiving feature requests from our customers, and our developers absolutely take that into consideration when deciding which new features to add. And we love that our customers are passionate enough about 1Password to take time to let us know about things like this! But again, the number of requests does not guarantee a certain feature will be added. We simply cannot add every feature that our customers ask us for - not even all those which receive many requests. And believe me, you wouldn't us to, as it would make the app into a huge mess.

    As I've mentioned before, I highly recommend reading this response from Dave from earlier in this thread (or any post from Dave in general - they're quite good!).

    I do apologize if we've done anything to make you feel like you're being ignored, and I can promise you that's not the case - we hear you loud and clear! Even if we don't add support for OwnCloud, it really helps us to know what our customers are looking for. So, thanks again for letting us know, and if you need anything else, please don't hesitate to contact us. We're here for you! :)

  • Thanks for coming back @Drew_AG

    A reply doesn't mean that you're listening. Hell, when I phone the phone company they always answer... they can never get the bills right, but they always tell me they are listening, there for me, working on things, trying to make things better.

    When I see a founder talking about how much things 'cost' as opposed to how they could meet the ever-changing demands of their customers, I cringe. That's exactly how you drive people to use competing solutions. Every single penny that AgileBits pays out is the cost of doing business, period. It doesn't matter where or how the money goes out... it just is. The only sensible way to cut down costs in any business is by reducing waste from within. Setting you staff up with the right tools to be able to respond to customers in the moment that they contact is a good example.

    From a solution perspective, the only people for whom you should be developing are your customers. Saying things like "...we're pretty happy with the balance we're struck..." smacks of arrogance and contempt for your users. In that response - we, we've, I, our. Where is the customer in any of that? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but thats what @dteare said.

    And to be clear, @dteare I am not having a go at you. In my work, I talk with the leaders of very large organisations every day... the best of those organisations show they are listening with action, directed at their customers, for their customers. I would like to think that these threads are that opportunity for someone like yourself to demonstrate such action... an opportunity if you will, to get things right the first time for your user base.

This discussion has been closed.