When will we see some progress on Windows Beta 6
![[Deleted User]](https://w8.vanillicon.com/v2/8af8b025280179af39c617dcef775232.svg)
What happened to the progress that was being made? There were fairly frequent updates being released, but all of a sudden, it seems like progress has come to a stand still. We know that this is a "new product". We also know that the subscription services are useless for Windows users without a viable Windows product. AgileBits has offered all kinds of promotions to get users to sign up for their subscription services, but once again Windows users are treated like they are an after thought. We are being repeatedly told that the primary focus for Windows 6 is subscription services first, but even that seems to have come to a halt.
If the Windows team really is still working on Windows 6 desktop, it would be really nice to see some progress instead of just being constantly told that your team is working as fast as they can.
1Password Version: Not Provided
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided
Sync Type: Not Provided
Comments
-
Hi @Bernfrin,
The next update is taking longer than usual because we're working on a large internal update to improve many subsystems at the same time. It's one of these updates that cannot be shipped without updating other parts of the app first. We're working on the database structure, sync, log, migration, and so on. There are changes made on the 1Password.com servers that we need to accommodate as well, so a lot of internal changes resulting in an update far bigger than what we've done in the past few months. This won't be a feature-packed update, though. I can say that some of the changes we've added would allow us to support certain new features quickly in the near future.
We don't have a timeframe on when this will be done, it's still ongoing as we speak and it needs to be tested before we can ship it.
0 -
Hi @Bernfrin,
If you're a primarily Windows family and need everything that 1Password 4 has, my suggestion is to revert back to 1Password 4. We will not have a version that matches or exceed 1Password 4's feature parity for a few months at the very least, we may not even get it done this year.
We've made a lot of progress in the last four months alone, we've shipped more than 25 updates that have improved a lot of areas but it is going to take much longer to get it to exceed 1Password 4, which had a lot of years behind it. We do honestly believe that 1Password 6 in 4 months won't even be the same as it is now, it'll feel like a brand new app, just like it does now compared to 4 months ago. We've promised a few things that we didn't deliver on time and we apologize about that, we did say we expected something to be done within a few months of the original 1Password.com's launch and we didn't get it done.
We do agree with you that where 1Password 6 Beta is right now, should've been here a year or two ago and it should be equal to 1Password 6 for Mac and there should be equal support for all platforms. Unfortunately, we had a different Windows project at that time to upgrade 1Password 4, which didn't work out the way we wanted it and we lost a lot of time when we had to reset to a new development project that is what you're seeing now.
Software development is not a precise science, we are not going to be shipping daily or weekly, it will have lulls just like every other 1Password apps we have. We won't do what we did with 1Password 4 for Windows (new team with more devs and new development workflow) but the only way for us to prove this is to do the actual work and get it done. Unfortunately, the type of development we're doing right now when an app is young is something you guys cannot see daily because a lot of it is under the hood. There will be updates over the next few months to improve 1Password mini and other features but we can't tell you exactly when because everything depends on what we do now.
0 -
I agree with @Bernfrin
I was happily using 1Password on my Mac. Moved to Windows about a year ago, and immediately noticed the difference. But I continued using it because it was my favorite. I was disappointed that support for 1Password Anywhere disappeared, but I hung on. When I received a promotional email from 1Password announcing new 1Password Accounts for Individuals, I was excited! Finally - a solution that would allow me to use 1Password on any PC -- including at work where I can't install 1Password.
The import process was confusing, but eventually, I go through it, only to realize that even Agilebits support recommended sticking with the old version because 1Password 6 for Windows isn't ready yet. Not sure why Agilebits would encourage conversion to a beta version and then tell those that took advantage of the 6 month offer that it would be best not to do so.
My frustration actually drove me re-try a competitor's product that I hadn't used in a long time. I'll give 1Password 6 for Windows and 1password accounts another try when it's finally out of beta, but the email from Agilebits inviting me to try the new versions and offering a promotional 6 month trial was a bad move in my opinion.
I'll come back again in the future when the product is ready, but in the interim, I recommend that Agilebits stop sending emails about the new product until it's a go. I can only speak for myself, but this miscue impacted the company's credibility.
I'll keep checking back...
0 -
@Bernfrin, I went through a similar experience recently with budgeting software (YNAB) who made the same mistake. They pushed people to a not ready for prime-time web subscription service which they promised would be updated frequently (because after all, moving to a web-based platform allows for fast implementation of upgrades.) That was in January. The product is still missing key functionality. Their reaction has been to "hide" from their customers. And while Agilebits is not hiding, YNAB is now losing customers who feel that YNAB has lost credibility. I hung on there for several months but decided to check out the competition and as a result, found something that works better for me. I've since left YNAB for good. Customers vote with their dollars. That's what I did.
I understand that 1Password 6 for Win isn't ready yet. I get that it's beta. It's the fact that customers are being enticed to try it. Bad move.
0 -
@amswitzer: I'm sorry that the 1Password 6 Windows desktop beta doesn't yet meet your expectations. We will meet and exceed them in time, but it isn't possible to add all features at once and have a stable and usable app. We're improving it step by step, but I appreciate that when you need it now that isn't fast enough. However, I don't think it's such a bad thing that you're offered a free trial to see if it's a good fit for you. If it isn't, that's the best way to know upfront after all. That's what we aim for: what you see is what you get. I'm just sorry that it isn't enough at this time, but we're working hard to get there. :blush:
@Bernfrin: It's definitely frustrating, as we want to give you exactly what you're asking for. But it isn't possible for us to ship a feature-complete stable app overnight. And I say "overnight" not as a snarky way of saying "be patient", because I know you have been! What I mean is that this is why we have a public beta: so folks can use it and see where it's at. But we're not going to miraculously release a "finished" version of 1Password 6 one day. We've made a lot of progress in during this beta period, and we're going to continue to do so. I'm sorry if you or anyone else was under the impression that we've been holding back for a big reveal. I think we've been open and consistent about the new app's progress. It's moving forward day by day, not in a giant (unstable) leap, and we appreciate that while many folks are using it daily, for some it isn't yet sufficient. :blush:
0 -
Nobody is disrupting that the product is beta. The issue was that the extent of how beta it is is not made clear during the sign up. If it's so early in development that the support team advises people that it's not ready to handle basic functionality in Windows, then don't invite Windows users to try it.
It's one thing to ask for users to beta test. It's another to offer free trials of a new platform that is half baked. That's my gripe. In this case, the free trial is frustrating users. Not enticing them.
But I've made my point so I'll leave it at that and I do thank you for your response. As stated before, I'll check in from time to time and gladly give it another shot when it's out of beta.
0 -
See, I just returned to the email I received from Agilebits that refers me to your blog at https://blog.agilebits.com/2016/08/03/new-1password-hosted-service/
You could have updated that blog with info relevant to those who wish to try the Windows version with a caveat about the current state of the Windows version. But it's still not mentioned. You can't blame potential users for having expectations which you yourselves have set.
0 -
@Bernfrin: I am fairly certain that we haven't claimed that 1Password 6 will be feature-complete by any date — August or otherwise. However, I totally get that when there's something we want badly enough it's easier to misinterpret something to mean what we want it to. No excuses. It isn't finished. Simple as that.
It's a lot of work, and we're committed to keeping it up indefinitely. We're not building this thing so we can "finish" it and forget about it; this is the next generation of 1Password for Windows. Versions 1 and 4 of 1Password for Windows weren't feature completely right out of the gate either.
I don't know how we could be more transparent about where we're at, apart from releasing buggy internal builds. You've had a front row seat to the progress and also what is still lacking. My point about the free trial is that its purpose is to let you actually use the service with the apps and see if it's worth it to you to pay for a subscription. It sounds like the answer may have been "no", but you subscribed anyway. I'm not sure it makes sense to try to have it both ways and feel that it is good enough to use but not good enough to pay for. If you feel that there are extenuating circumstances (that are perhaps out of place on a public forum), please contact us via email at support@1password.com and we'll see what we can do to help though.
0 -
Nobody is disrupting that the product is beta. The issue was that the extent of how beta it is is not made clear during the sign up. If it's so early in development that the support team advises people that it's not ready to handle basic functionality in Windows, then don't invite Windows users to try it.
@amswitzer: Everyone has a different comfort level and requirements. A lot of people are really enjoying using 1Password 6 even today. We're not going to discourage those people who can benefit from doing so. We're also not going to add a ton of "warning" text when people can easily try the app before they pay anything to determine if it meets their needs. For some people the answer is not yet, but increasingly for others it's really useful.
It's one thing to ask for users to beta test. It's another to offer free trials of a new platform that is half baked. That's my gripe. In this case, the free trial is frustrating users. Not enticing them.
Can you elaborate on this "enticement"? You make it sound like we're luring children into our gingerbread house or something! I say that a bit tongue-in-cheek, but in all seriousness if there's something that I or any other AgileBits staff have said that you feel is misleading, that's a big problem and the only way we can set the record straight is if you tell us what in particular gave you the wrong impression. And certainly don't hesitate to contact us via email at support@1password.com if you feel that there are special circumstances in your case where we may be able to do something to help.
You could have updated that blog with info relevant to those who wish to try the Windows version with a caveat about the current state of the Windows version. But it's still not mentioned. You can't blame potential users for having expectations which you yourselves have set.
I don't understand what expectations you feel we're setting. You may be right, but without the specifics it's difficult for me to properly scrutinize the claims you're referring to. Please let me know, especially if there is a correction that needs to be made!
0 -
You know what? I give up. You're nitpicking my words because you feel the need to defend Agilebits and I get that.
Read the blog I quoted, which is linked to in the email I was sent. There isn't a single word in there about the fact that Windows 6 is in early beta and a lot of functionality isn't there. That's all I'm saying. Can't you see that yourself?
Your 6 month offer is "enticing". That's all. The reference to pedophiles was unprofessional and uncalled for.
I'm not that only one suggesting that Agilebits may have been a bit unclear on the current status of the Windows 6 client. There are a few similar posts here.
But if you prefer to argue, I'm not interested.
Sometimes the best approach is to simply thank the customer for their feedback, check into some of the points they raise, apologize if things weren't clear, and move on. If your job is to simply defend Agilebits on this by refuting everything a customer is saying, then I misunderstood the point of the support forums.
Note I'm not whining about the new subscription model; the fact that the Android app makes password filling somewhat tedious, etc. My only point is "you guys were not clear on how "beta" Windows 6 client is with clients to whom you sent an email inviting them to try the new web-based app. " That's all.
So, after years with 1Password and having paid for upgrades in the past, I now won't even bother coming back. I give up. My initial frustration prompted me to check out some of your competition. Your nonsense in the forum here has convinced me it's time to move on. Nice one!
0 -
You know what? I give up. You're nitpicking my words because you feel the need to defend Agilebits and I get that.
@amswitzer: That wasn't my intention at all. My concern was that I was having difficulty nitpicking our words since I don't know what in particular you were referring to. :(
Your 6 month offer is "enticing". That's all. The reference to pedophiles was unprofessional and uncalled for.
That's a fair point. But again, that's 6 months for free. If at any point in those 6 months you or anyone else feels that a 1Password subscription isn't adequate for them, there's no need to even add payment. There's no credit card required to sign up. I don't see that there's anything wrong with that.
I'm sorry that you feel you were misled by the free offer. A lot of people requested an "individual" option, and we were excited to share it. Perhaps in our excitement we failed to adequately express the limitations of the service and some of the apps (including the beta). We'll continue to improve so we can get it to the point where it's useful to more people. Ultimately that's the best thing we can do for 1Password users: continue to do the work.
0 -
One of the first signs of a company in trouble is when the Customer Service people insult customers.
I don't get why he's so agressive. I came here to find out why I was having so much trouble with the Win 6 version. And when they responded with a spin like "well, it's still beta", I questioned why this wasn't clear.
I'm not here to slam a company I used to have a lot of faith in. I don't work for the competition. Why would a customer come into a forum and question things if the concerns weren't real for the customer.
And to be responded to with such snarkiness? No thanks. No company is **that **secure that they can take customers for granted and insult them.
Last post from me. Good luck to you!
0 -
Hello everyone,
I'm very sorry for how everyone is feeling in this thread. It's not how I want any of my customers feeling. I know Brenty quite well and I know he didn't want to give the impression he gave you, but the fact remains that this is how you're feeling and that's very sad! :(
Please allow me some time to shed some light on things and see if we can turn things around.
First things first: you're right, it does indeed appear as if the pace of development on Windows has slowed. You can see this in our 1Password 6 for Windows changelog. After 11 updates in July, we've only seen 3 updates for this month. That's a sad state of affairs as you'd expect the opposite – you'd expect a lot of updates leading up to the first release as typically release cycles end with a lot of little minor updates for polishing some last minute things.
So where are all the updates?
The unfortunate reality is there were some major "underneath the covers" changes that needed to be made before the official launch. Sergey and team are working on these big changes as we speak and that's why you haven't seen any updates since the 11th. I'm not very happy about this and Jeff and I both challenged Sergey for the need to make these changes, but unfortunately he made a strong argument. Microsoft has some new updates to their development tools, specifically a new database library, and we need to make use of this for many performance and stability benefits. While there's a lot for our developers to be excited about, the bad news is large changes like this one always cause unintended consequences and as a result I suspect the release date will be pushed out even further.
That leaves me in the unfortunate place of needing to eat some humble pie here and say that we're not going to meet our August release dates. As much as I dislike missing internal dates I absolutely hate missing public dates. There was actually a lot of internal debate before my post as it's always risky making dates for public releases. In many ways it would have been "safer" to simply not say anything. I'm not happy how things turned out but I am still happy that I wrote that blog post when I did and explicitly mentioned Windows. The reason I say that is the #1 reason I included the August date in my Teams announcement post was I wanted to show Windows users that we care about Windows and we are not ignoring them. So for that I'm not sorry, but I am very sorry that we didn't meet our (what we believed to be a) perfectly reasonable release date.
As early as last week I was writing the Windows announcement post during my vacation as I had planned on publishing it tomorrow. It wasn't until late last week that we decided it just couldn't happen.
It's still early in the game to speculate about what the release date will be as we need to get that update out and see how many unintended consequences there are from the changes being made underneath the hood. Afterwards Sergey and his team will have a lot more visibility and I'll feel more confident in sharing a new date with everyone.
Now that leaves us with the really big issue of all the Windows users missing out on all of our lovely launch specials. It's no coincidence that the individual plan's launch special ends on September 21st – I wanted all Windows users to have an entire 3 weeks to enjoy the special. It's also no coincidence that I've extended the Teams special as well since I also wanted Windows users to have a chance to get it as well.
I don't have the specifics yet on how we'll make this possible, but I really want to have a special that Windows users can enjoy with a non-beta app. It's something that keeps me up at night and I hope to find a solution that works for everyone.
I hope you give me a chance to show you that we absolutely care about you @amswitzer and @Bernfrin. I knew it was going to be difficult to launch 3 services over 5 different platforms but Windows ended up being more of a challenge than we expected. We're moving forward and we will get there. I apologize we didn't get there sooner.
–Dave Teare
AgileBits Founder0 -
Thanks for sharing your feelings with me @Bernfrin. It's always good to have an open and honest conversation in any relationship, be it marriage or password management :)
It's not always easy to hear when things go wrong but it's super important that we know so we can improve. I'm not going to defend nor attack any specific discussions here or anywhere else, but I would like to share that in general customer support is a tough job. It's especially tough in written form as it's hard to make your tone understood. I know myself that I've been insulted reading something and then later on when I revisit the conversation and re-read it, I feel differently about it. If I read things with a different tone or frame of mind, things can be as different as night and day.
Anyway, I'm not defending anyone's actions. I just wanted to say that it's a difficult job in general and this Windows situation has everyone on edge, so I can understand where people are coming from.
We need to focus on moving forward, and that's exactly what we're going to do. <3
0 -
@amswitzer: While I don't share the same history with you, I'm equally saddened that I've had any kind of negative impact on you as well. There's nothing I can do but say that I'm sorry, and learn from this. You understandably may not be receptive to my apology, but I'd like to offer it anyway. If I've negatively impacted your opinion of AgileBits or, more importantly, your day, I am truly sorry. :(
@Bernfrin: I know you don't relish the idea of another reply from me, but I did want to follow up here after reading your most recent posts. I've actually really enjoyed our exchanges for the most part, and it makes me kind of sick to hear that while I'm enjoying the discussion we're having, you're not in the least. That's pretty awful, and given that I can totally see where you're coming from. I try to be straightforward, but viewed through that lens it probably just seems uncaring. That couldn't be farther from the reality, but the perception is a failure on my part to understand where you're coming from and convey what's in my heart properly.
It wasn't my intention to be flippant or rude, but I'm sure that's what it seems like if our exchanges have already been unwelcome. I appreciate your constructive criticism and overall position, even if we disagree on certain points. I think that some dissent is actually a lot better for everyone, as it forces us to look at things from a different perspective, and challenges us to do even better. In some cases we do a great job, but there's always room for improvement. But in this case we haven't set or met expectations appropriately. And, more to the point, regardless of my intentions or the reality, I've done a terrible job here if you or anyone else comes away from this discussion feeling unloved. I'm sorry. :(
0 -
For what it's worth, I've found my experience as a customer of AgileBits / 1Password to be nothing short of stellar over the last year (initally OSX customer, now 1Password indivual account across all platforms). With the couple of problems I've had, every time I've reached out your team has gone above and beyond to get them sorted.
I work in tech, so I empathise with your crappy situation of not being able to deliver within a committed release window. Sometimes software development throws hiccups, and it can only be resolved with time put towards fixing the hiccups. Sometimes that time takes you past the release dates you promised, and we have to appreciate that can sometimes be the case.
In the meantime I'm loving the leaps and bounds 1P6 has made so far on Windows, and can wait a bit longer for a production release. The first six months are free regardless, so I'm not paying for anything!
Just felt like commenting to say I love your work and keep at it, as your happy customers don't usually have a reason to reach out!
0 -
Hello everyone.
First of all, I have ALWAYS received excellent customer service from Agilebits with the exception of this last exchange. And I think if you read the thread from the top, you will understand why the tone of the conversation took a turn. The fact that both @brenty and @dteare felt the need to re-evaluate and apologize should reconfirm that my particular concerns and my reaction were legitimate at the time.
@dteare , @brenty : Thanks for your posts. I appreciate your responses. Please try to keep in mind that my intention was never to put you guys on the spot about why the Win 6 version wasn't ready. My sole concern was the fact that the Windows 6 client being "very beta" at this point was not made clear in communications, including your own blog (for which I supplied a link to for reference in my post). That's it. I get that progress can stall on these things. No issue with that at all, gentlemen. My concern was the mix-up in communications which lead to frustration for myself and for a few others who were really keen to try out the new client. I get that it's not ready yet and I'm willing to wait until you announce it's good to go.
Thanks to both of you again for re-evaluating the messages and for having the integrity to post a public apology and explanation. That kind of response speaks strongly of how you feel about your customers.
Let's move forward. I'll check on the progress of 1Password 6 Win and when you launch, I'll happily give it another try.
0 -
Thank you @Bernfrin, @amswitzer, and @dukenewcomb. I really appreciate it.
One of the biggest problems we have is the longer we wait to ship the harder it gets to actually release anything. And the longer we wait, the higher the expectations get, so it's tempting to wait longer and make things even better before releasing. It feels like an immutable law of software development and it's a very a slippery slope to be on!
I suspect we'll need to find a way to break things up into multiple releases. For example, one idea is to ship the initial release without full browser support. I have mixed feelings about that one though as I love my browser support dearly, but it's important to get in the habit of actually releasing things and iterating. We'll get there. I just wish it was sooner :)
0 -
@dteare No browser support is a fairly significant non-starter for me - it's frankly not any better than using the web experience. In fact, it has the potential to be worse if it doesn't support attachments/documents.
Personally, I think the Windows release has suffered from a lack of maniacal focus on a specific, end-to-end use case. The attempt to make it initially work with both 1Password.com and local vaults seems to have led to a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none result.
What if you did the following?
Don't initially ship in the Windows app store. I understand why you'll want to have an app store version in the fullness of time, but for the first release, just focus on the non-app store version.
Ignore local vaults for the first release. You have a legit story to tell around "1Password is the first Windows release to support teams, families, and personal 1Password.com accounts. We chose to focus on that first." I sincerely mean "drop it". Comment all of it, except perhaps import of local vaults into cloud accounts and, if you need to, cut that, too. Don't fix another perf, UX, first run, reliability bug related to it.
Focus on the end-to-end experience of a 1Password.com user. Finish everything related to create/update/delete operations including the client and browsers. Take as much time as you need to get this right because until you have it, you haven't actually solved a problem for anyone.
Get to the point at which the Windows experience is "logical model complete". Items, fields, sections. Whatever you're going to do with documents (attachments, documents, references, whatever). Don't worry about Watchtower, security audit, etc. But absolutely do get to the point at which you have a full-fidelity experience over the data model. For what it's worth, I think 1Password needs to commit much more strongly to a single, consistent data model across platforms and to have some real discipline around never allowing any one platform to deviate or get ahead of the others on core data model characteristics.
Personally, I think this would be an acceptable and balanced approach. As a very frustrated Windows user, I can tell you that a release that doesn't have a complete data model and doesn't have browser support will be even more frustrating than the situation we have today. It won't be compelling enough for me to move from local vaults to the cloud (because doing so would give up browser integration!) and it certainly won't convince me to start using it for local vaults in preference to v4.
I hope you find this helpful.
0 -
I would have to agree entirely with @zendnez.
As someone who regularly uses 1Password across Mac & Windows, the Windows version is shockingly incompetent compared to the Mac. I run software development teams and fully understand the challenges involved - no interest in re-debating the beta/alpha label or timescales. It's far from feature complete & missing some fundamentals. Don't bother with the excuses or spin please, yes development's hard. Yes, things take time. Yes, Microsoft tend to screw things up. None of those are being challenged.In terms of getting something out the door, the number one use case that surely needs to be satisfied is having a robust & usable in-browser experience - with basics ticked off in terms of create/update/deletes and friction-free usage. Without this, 1Password is an annoyance to use and needing to launch the application to do something basic like creating a new login is frustrating at best.
Couldn't care less whether the application ships through the App Store or not - struggling to see any benefits to be honest and actually is more of an irritation than simply clicking a link, downloading & installing.
Releasing something without browser support would be a major mistake - and send a message that you see Windows as a poor cousin of a platform compared to Mac. New users testing the platform won't care about the challenging path to market - they'll just focus on what they see when they try the product.
Focus on the end-to-end usability; get the browser extension working and working well covering off all the essentials in terms of robust matching, creating new logins, editing etc.. then worry about all the other stuff that's missing - but that could come later.0 -
I don't see AgileBits doing any recent development on the Windows Store version (it's mainly for Windows Phone support they've said anyway) and the new version isn't in the Store. From what I gather they're essentially working on what @zendnez is suggesting--not since starting development, but in the last couple of months at least. They're not there yet, which no one is happy about, but I do think they've made it there from a goal standpoint, at least from what I've seen from beta releases and the forums.
- They haven't updated the app store version in a long time, don't see it happening any time soon.
- The local/Dropbox vaults are read-only (allows importing) and (probably still) very low performance and no visible progress is being made on that recently.
- The next two items seems to be what they're focusing on, beyond the internal data model updates they're working on due to recent Microsoft releases.
That's my outside understanding (as a daily user of the beta now and a heavy forum reader in spurts), but I am looking forward to more results like everyone :-)
0
