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Couple questions about converting to subscription account

justhere
justhere
Community Member

Hello,

Been reading up for a couple of hours on the subscription model. I'm sold on the benefits and plan to make the jump in Jan 2017.

Context: The last time I researched 1PW was when I signed up in 2014, using Windows/iOS & AgileKeychain & DropBox sync. Been a satisfied customer ever since, so besides keeping the software updated I haven't read anything about it.

  1. MetaData Encryption: Will the conversion from AgileKeychain to a 1PW account also encrypt the AgileKeychain metadata? Or, would I still need to convert to OpVault first?

  2. Attachments: I understand that attachments will no longer get pushed to all devices, that I'll need to go to each and open the attachment in order to pull a copy to each device. Once I pull a copy to the device, it's there forever? What about deleting the image? i.e. a picture of a credit card that was lost. Will I need to delete it from each device?

  3. Is there a web-interface to the new 1PW account? Saw some references to this in the support forum, but I can't imagine how that would work...you'd need a username/password/masterpassword/account_key or some combination thereof, and if you had all that, then you're probably looking at your 1PW data on your phone & wouldn't need to login to your friend's computer.

  4. I've read through some of the conversion to subscription docs & watched a video. Not much mention of what to do with dropbox. No need to disconnect the devices from DropBox before the conversion?

I'm thankful for AgileBits. I trust you. You make a sincere effort to help your base understand security and how your product works. It's also great how kind you are to grumpy customers, and how excited you are about the product. Which hopefully softens you up for...

  1. The switch to 1PW accounts seems like it's mainly an improvement to sync security. The app must be able to survive as a standalone on a disconnected device (while in airplane mode), so I don't get how the switch to a 1PW account means access to new features. Again, not a dig against the value -- I'm already sold on the value and will switch to subscription.

Just trying to understand what you mean about access to new features. Unless you mean that I'm covered as far as any new upgrades in the future -- that I understand. Just don't understand how you hosting the data means extra features for an app that has to be able to standalone on my device. With the exception of storing backups & change history for us.

Thanks!

John

Comments

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni
    edited December 2016

    Been reading up for a couple of hours on the subscription model. I'm sold on the benefits and plan to make the jump in Jan 2017.

    @justhere: Wow! You sound like me. I spend a lot of time researching major purchases. :pirate:

    Context: The last time I researched 1PW was when I signed up in 2014, using Windows/iOS & AgileKeychain & DropBox sync. Been a satisfied customer ever since, so besides keeping the software updated I haven't read anything about it.

    It makes me really happy to hear that because, while there is certainly room for improvement, it sounds like you've been enjoying 1Password and it's been intuitive enough for you not to have to stop to try and figure things out. :chuffed:

    MetaData Encryption: Will the conversion from AgileKeychain to a 1PW account also encrypt the AgileKeychain metadata? Or, would I still need to convert to OpVault first?

    Everything you add to a 1Password Account is encrypted right off the bat. Indeed, when you use 1Password, AgileBits never has access to your data, regardless of the setup you choose. Even with 1Password.com, all data is encrypted on your device, so all the server ever ends up with is an encrypted blob. And since the Account Key is created locally, your Master Password is only known by you, and neither is ever transmitted, no one — including AgileBits — has the means to decrypt the data.

    You can read more details on how all of this works in our white paper, and don't hesitate to ask any other questions you may have! :)

    Attachments: I understand that attachments will no longer get pushed to all devices, that I'll need to go to each and open the attachment in order to pull a copy to each device. Once I pull a copy to the device, it's there forever? What about deleting the image? i.e. a picture of a credit card that was lost. Will I need to delete it from each device?

    I'm not sure I completely understand your questions, but I'll do my best to explain how it works and you can clarify things or ask followup questions. 1Password Accounts use Documents. These are a separate item type. Also, any items can be linked together. Documents are downloaded on demand to your device when you access them, and then they're available offline. A lot of this makes more sense once you try it.

    Is there a web-interface to the new 1PW account? Saw some references to this in the support forum, but I can't imagine how that would work...you'd need a username/password/masterpassword/account_key or some combination thereof, and if you had all that, then you're probably looking at your 1PW data on your phone & wouldn't need to login to your friend's computer.

    I kind of agree with you here. It isn't something I use frequently since I always have my phone with me. But sometimes it is useful to access your account on a computer instead of a phone, but you may not be able to (or want to) install the app there. This isn't something that everyone depends on, but it's good to have the option there, and it's made possible since it's hosted anyway.

    I've read through some of the conversion to subscription docs & watched a video. Not much mention of what to do with dropbox. No need to disconnect the devices from DropBox before the conversion?

    Not at all. Dropbox (or any other option in the standalone app) will be using a local vault, and this is always going to be completely separate from your 1Password Account. Some folks just move the data over and then remove the old vault(s), and others (like me) still have some Dropbox vaults around. It's really just a matter of personal preference.

    I'm thankful for AgileBits. I trust you. You make a sincere effort to help your base understand security and how your product works. It's also great how kind you are to grumpy customers, and how excited you are about the product. Which hopefully softens you up for...

    Hehe. Well, I'm looking forward to the next part, but I do want to say that I appreciate the kind words. We're not perfect, but we strive to do our best for all of our awesome customers. I think anyone can be grumpy. I can understand this especially when things aren't working the way they should. And frankly we can get grumpy too thinking about all of the things we want to do to improve 1Password that we haven't yet gotten to. Even if no one else noticed, we sure do! ;)

    The switch to 1PW accounts seems like it's mainly an improvement to sync security. The app must be able to survive as a standalone on a disconnected device (while in airplane mode), so I don't get how the switch to a 1PW account means access to new features. Again, not a dig against the value -- I'm already sold on the value and will switch to subscription.
    Just trying to understand what you mean about access to new features. Unless you mean that I'm covered as far as any new upgrades in the future -- that I understand. Just don't understand how you hosting the data means extra features for an app that has to be able to standalone on my device. With the exception of storing backups & change history for us.

    I'm glad you brought this up. It kind of reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant — different people "see" different things in 1Password.com: no sync configuration, no separate licenses or upgrades, easy sharing, web access...but you totally nailed my personal Holy Grail of "What 1Password.com is": automatic offsite backup and versioning. I've lost data in the past when my backup strategy wasn't sufficient, or suffered a failure, and this isn't something I'd wish on anyone. I'm really, really happy (you don't even know) that myself and other 1Password.com subscribers never have to worry about losing our 1Password data again. I'll be happy to ramble on about this more if you'd like, but I'll stop here in case you're already going to sleep on me. This is just something I'm incredibly passionate about.

    Regarding "access to new features", I think generally we mean that you'll always get the latest version of the 1Password apps for all of your devices as part of your subscription...but the fact is that having a sustainable hosted service like this allows us to do more than we could in the past. Where previously we really had to focus on a major feature release, with a subscription, we can more easily rollout new features over time. And frankly, as a subscriber, you should expect that. And of course also we can add features outside of the apps, built into the service itself, which isn't possible with a standalone app, like permissions, web interface, sharing improvements, and other stuff I can't even tell you about yet. Admittedly, some of that may not be useful (or of interest) outside of a Team or Family environment, but since we've designed all of this ourselves, it gives us more flexibility going forward.

    Anyway, I hope this helps answer your questions, and be sure to let me know if you have others! :)

  • justhere
    justhere
    Community Member

    Thanks Brenty.

    For the unencrypted metadata issue, reference Dale Myers' non-story about the URLs not being encrypted in 1Password.agilekeychain/data/default/contents.js. See blog:
    -> https://blog.agilebits.com/2015/10/19/when-a-leak-isnt-a-leak/

    Agilebits then made a new version of the Keychain called "OpVault" which fully encrypted the metadata. Will my shift to the subscription model result in encrypted metadata, or should I convert to OpVault first? Opvault had the additional benefit of being several times smaller than the AgileKeychain, which is sweet.

    I'm sure "Documents" in 1PW 6 work just fine, so you can disregard those questions.

    On the "Quicker Access to New Features" subject, I think you guys should consider dropping that from your list of benefits for 1PW accounts. If you changed the message to "We plan to have quicker release cycles with smaller incremental improvements," that would work. The reason: it does not follow logically that Agilebits hosting data results in a faster release cycle. I'm guessing that if you put a stopwatch to it, the time savings in the development & testing & deployment cycle between 1PW 4 for Windows and 1PW 6 for Windows is probably measured in hours, so I don't think it qualifies as a marketing benefit. The choice to have smaller, quicker, incremental releases is a business decision.

    And...by selling that benefit, you confuse the issue of a completed hosted, shared-infrastructure solution versus a standalone app on every device. That's where I got confused.

    Just a suggestion. Again, not trying to make a dig against you guys, just pointing out that this selling point for the account causes some confustion as stated. If you clarified the "why" every time you made that statement, that would work as well.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions!

  • @justhere When you move to an account, the metadata will be encrypted automatically. No need for an intermediate step of the OPVault. :)

    On the "Quicker Access to New Features" subject, I think you guys should consider dropping that from your list of benefits for 1PW accounts. If you changed the message to "We plan to have quicker release cycles with smaller incremental improvements," that would work. The reason: it does not follow logically that Agilebits hosting data results in a faster release cycle. I'm guessing that if you put a stopwatch to it, the time savings in the development & testing & deployment cycle between 1PW 4 for Windows and 1PW 6 for Windows is probably measured in hours, so I don't think it qualifies as a marketing benefit. The choice to have smaller, quicker, incremental releases is a business decision.

    Ah, I'm not sure that's quite what Brenty meant. Having a subscription model gives us a chance to always be developing new features and release them when they are ready. Previously we would wait until a big version update and release all the features with that, but now we can roll them out one by one, which is pretty cool for our users.

    And...by selling that benefit, you confuse the issue of a completed hosted, shared-infrastructure solution versus a standalone app on every device. That's where I got confused.

    Could you clarify how that confusion started? I'd love to make it clearer.

    Thanks again for the feedback! We appreciate it.

  • justhere
    justhere
    Community Member

    Thanks Jacob.

    I make the suggestion to not play up the quicker access to newer features because it does not follow necessarily. As in A=b, b=c, therefore a = c. It's a business decision based on the change to the payment model rather than a change to the software model. When you make the statement without explaining it, it made me wonder what I was missing.

    In it's place, I recommend being more specific. Instead of one general selling point "quicker access to more features," describe the individual points:

    • The move to the subscription model means we'll stay on the same version from here on out, releasing incremental improvements more quickly.
    • Now that AgileBits has the ability to host the underlying data, we can do backups and store change history for you.

    That's my feedback based on reading through the flurry of comments to the blog-post on August 8 onward. Not all of them...just a couple of hours worth of reading through & trying to understand the change.

    I think you guys did a great job of explaining how the new solution is more secure than the othere sync options. That was good enough to sell me on the change. As far as the value of the change, Agilebits offers plenty of value. I'm happy to pay you $36/year for your service, and as I've read through the comments there are many other customers who feel the same way. So... my recommendation on the marketing message is in no way a ding against the value. It's just the one benefit that, for me, raised more questions than it answered.

    Thanks,

    John

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @justhere: Thanks for following up. I wonder if we're talking about different things here. On our pricing page, "App upgrades included" is one of the benefits we list. That's what I had in mind when I elaborated earlier. If you were referring to a blog post from August, I'm not sure we'll be going back and retconning that, but we've definitely made a number of improvements to the website since then. If, however, you're seeing current information which seems confusing or contradictory, please direct me to the page(s) so we can get it updated. And I agree that we should talk more about how everything is backed up automatically. ;)

    Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're excited about 1Password.com too, and be sure to let us know if you have any other comments, questions, or feedback! :)

This discussion has been closed.