I can't help but wonder:are there really any plans to have 1password 6 for windows for local vaults?

QutritQutrit
edited February 2017 in 1Password 4 for Windows

HI,

I have been asking regularly about every other month, if there are any news regarding the release of 1passowrd 6 for windows for local vaults. I use 1password cross-platform on my ios devices, macs and PCs, and I can't help but being a bit skeptical about all previous replies that I got saying that you are currently working on implementing 1password 6 for windows.

If the future plans for 1password is to focus only on online accounts, that's great, but I think the product would simply not be for me anymore. If on the other hand you still plan to support local vaults, what is delaying the windows version? it feels outdated and abandoned.

Thanks in advance for your reply and I hope yo understand my perspective here.


1Password Version: Not Provided
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided
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Comments

  • Agreed. I want local accounts. If they go online accounts only (for a subscription) then I go elsewhere the moment the last version of 1PW 4.x doesn't work for me.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @mia: Thanks for letting us know! Can you elaborate on where you're having trouble with 1Password 4? We'll be happy to help in any way we can. :)

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @Qutrit: I definitely understand where you're coming from. Though I've been happily using 1Password Families for a year now, I've still got a few Dropbox vaults too...and using them in the new 1Password 6 Windows desktop app is a bit of a chore. So I'd very much like local vault support there too. If you think you and other long-time 1Password for Windows users bring this up a lot, I think I may still have everyone beat. Nevertheless, right now our focus is on 1Password.com and building the new 1Password 6 Windows desktop app is a critical part of that. But unlike the enormous task we've undertaken rewriting 1Password to take advantage of Microsoft's latest platform and tools, I thought I'd offer some thoughts @dteare shared a few days ago (rather than try to rewrite him), to give you a better sense of where we're at:

    I’d like to share with you our Windows plans so you know where we are headed. Before jumping in I need to set the stage and explain where we’ve been. Then we can cover where we’re at and finish off with where we’re headed.

    1Password 4 is our current official version for standalone license holders. Version 4 is based on the same technologies the first version used when it was released in 2011. Designed since the beginning for standalone licenses, it does this quite well and has support for syncing with Dropbox and even allows you to sync completely offline using WLAN Sync. The implementation was done using Delphi, and while this is a very good and capable programming language, Microsoft has introduced several newer technologies that we wanted to take advantage of.

    1Password 6 is our leap into the future that uses these new technologies exclusively and we are in the middle of rewriting everything from version 4 into this brave new world. It’s both very exciting and terrifying. The excitement comes from being able to use all the latest and greatest technologies, and the terror comes from needing to rewrite over 5 years worth of code.

    We knew from the start that 1Password 6 was going to be a monumental undertaking and so we tried to keep the feature set as small as possible. At the time we had zero support for 1Password Teams on Windows (our families and personal memberships didn’t exist yet) and we had full support for standalone licenses in version 4. Since we had a working solution for standalone vaults and given the effort version 6 would require, we made the decision early on to focus exclusively on Teams. To this end, 1Password 6 is currently focused exclusively on our new hosted services and so there is indeed no support for standalone licenses or other sync methods.

    I know a lot of people are using Dropbox and WLAN Sync and want to use this new version, and I certainly don’t want to do anything to upset any of our longtime supporters. At the same time, we have a lot of plates in the air we need to juggle so we needed to choose what to work on. The choice we made for version 6 was a whole new app focused exclusively on 1Password memberships.

    One could question our decision to start from scratch and completely rebuild everything. There are certainly many “post mortem” blog posts from other companies that have taken the same route in the past. Indeed it represents a mammoth undertaking as it takes time to build quality software. In our case, it took over 5 years to make 1Password 4 what it was at the time we decided to start over. We knew this going in and we were indeed a little scared, but our excitement outweighed that. We were excited because we wanted to use the latest and greatest technologies so we could create the best 1Password experience possible on Windows.

    Fast forward a year or so and we announced our beta and after toiling away and working our way through the beta process, I was really excited to announce 1Password 6 for Windows a few months later (back in October of last year). It was a good release, but like any “dot oh” release, there are a lot of things to polish and work through to make it really shine. And with this “dot oh” version being a complete rewrite, it’s no surprise that we’re still working through this process.

    It would have made everyone lives a lot easier if this release had complete support for all the standalone features but it simply wasn’t possible. I think it’s easy to underestimate the amount of effort involved to roll out support for Dropbox. I know I fall into this trap often myself so I think it would be helpful to elaborate on what’s required.

    We can start with the ability to sync your data as it gives a pretty good glimpse of what’s involved to go from a 1Password membership solution to one that also supporting standalone vaults.

    Syncing would require us to add two additional synchronization systems: WLAN Sync and Dropbox. Both of these do things completely differently from one another, and both are completely different than how our 1Password accounts sync (accounts sync much faster and have push notifications for live data reload because we have complete control over both the clients and server so we’re able to optimize the protocol and minimize how much data needs to be exchanged). Syncing is one of the most difficult problems in software today and is very difficult to get right once, let alone three times.

    And once we add these additional sync solutions, there’s also a lot of tricky things we need to do for conflict resolution along with new windows for adding multiple vaults and guarding against all the other crazy scenarios people can find themselves in. For example, what should 1Password do if you remove your data from Dropbox and add a new data file there? Or what happens if the files on Dropbox simply disappear? Did the user mean to delete the files or was it an accident? Should we import a missing file and thereby delete the local copy? And what do we do when a user restores an old backup or imports their files multiple times? All of these scenarios need to be accounted for and tested rigorously to ensure your data remains safe.

    The complexity introduced by distributed data sources is huge. So much so that one of my favourite things about our hosted accounts is 1Password.com is the single source of truth. This allows us to greatly simplify things across the board, both for users, our developers, and support teams.

    Now of course that’s just for syncing. For a complete solution we would also need to wire in license validation, create a new trial expiry window and purchase experience, guard against fraud, update our model to support additional data formats, extend our website to support the new license, document things for new users, and the list goes on from there.

    All of these things may not seem like a very big deal on their own, but they add up quickly. As such I’ve asked our Windows team to make version 6 the best it can be with an exclusive focus on hosted accounts. Once this is completed, we can take a step back and decide where we go from there.

    As much as I would have loved to have had full support for everything, our time is finite so we needed to pick a few priorities and roll with them. There are a lot of additional things going on behind the scenes that we need to complete as well so at this point in time I simply can’t say when we would be able to begin work on this. I’m trying to be as open as possible by saying this is not something we’re working on at this moment, but I can’t pull back the curtain any further than that.

    The easiest way forward is to sign up for a 1Password membership. Doing so will not only get you the latest version of 1Password on Windows, but it will also get you a lot of additional benefits that weren’t available to Windows users in version 4. For example, it’s very easy to have multiple vaults on Windows now (before you had to manually add each additional vault) and you can switch between them without needing to unlock each one separately. You also get the benefits of our hosted service, including data loss protection, item history, web access, built-in sync across all your devices, access to 1Password on all platforms, and free upgrades to every new version.

    I hope everyone reading this will give our new 1Password membership a chance (we have a 30 day free trial and it’s easy to move over your existing data) but of course you’re free to continue using 1Password 4 for as long as you like.

    Anyway, our general plan is clear: we need 1Password to have a consistent feature set and UX across every platform and we’re working our way there. I hesitate to give out any specific ETAs as it’s always hard to make the future reality match today’s plans – but we’re getting closer everyday. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and I look forward to sharing more with you in the future :)

    Take care,

    ++dave;

    I think he gives a comprehensive overview of the state of 1Password on the Windows platform there. While I'm sad that I don't have good news for your particular request, I'm happy with the progress we're making on the new app — especially in the latest betas. Bittersweet, but things are looking up :blush:

  • brenty,
    I meant "If 1Password 4" doesn't work for me anymore, I will switch.

    Forgive me for saying this, but AgileBits does not have the best track record when talking truthfully about its future plans. Staff were telling people different things up until the day before Family Sharing was released. They even admitted that this wasn't their best moment.

    From what it sounds like 1Password 4 is being depreciated (in other words, abandoned) along with its license holders. So someone who purchased windows, mac, and iOS for a big chunk of change would have to "subscribe" to a service. That's THE reason I left LastPass and migrated all 500 (!) of my logins here. It's really sad because we've come to use and rely on this software on a daily basis.

    The fact that one has to make a choice to leave 1Password and spend nearly 1-2 WEEKS migrating all of the data they've accumulated over the years or pay a $5 a month for a family of 5 (when I don't even NEED 5 licenses. Just 1) is a real stab in the back and incredible frustration.

    We helped make 1Password great from the beginning and I will hold out on v4.x as long as I can, but it's depressing to know I am using abandonware for something so critical for my security.

  • MikeTMikeT Agile Samurai

    Team Member
    edited February 2017

    Hi @mia,

    We're not abandoning you or 1Password 4. What we're saying is that 1Password 6 for Windows is going to take much longer than anticipated to arrive to replace 1Password 4. Right now, even for 1Password.com users, 1Password 6 is not complete. We are rolling out 1Password 6 in stages and shipping as fast as we can with more features. We want 1Password 6 to be complete before it can replace 1Password 4. It does not make any sense to offer 1Password 6 as an upgrade when it doesn't have 100% of the features that 1Password 4 has.

    I meant "If 1Password 4" doesn't work for me anymore, I will switch.

    We do understand and 1Password 4 will continue to be updated with all security updates. We still support 1Password 3 for Mac users whenever they write in just as 1Password 1.x for Windows.

    However, 1Password 6 for Windows is the rare exception where it is first brand new code base we've started at AgileBits for a very long time and as the result, it needs a lot of time and resources to get it in a useable state for both local vaults and 1Password.com users. A lot of things are not set in stone because we review our priorities once a week and change our development plans all the time.

    Forgive me for saying this, but AgileBits does not have the best track record when talking truthfully about its future plans.

    That's because as per our policy, we do not share anything about the future, we don't know what the future will be like, anything can change. Two years ago, we didn't even know we were going to have 1Password.com service and to have a brand new version of 1Password for Windows.

    From what it sounds like 1Password 4 is being depreciated (in other words, abandoned) along with its license holders.

    No, it is not. 1Password 4 will continue to be updated with security updates while we work on 1Password 6 to implement all new features and eventually local vaults. Right now, local vaults is just not something we have the resources for while implementing the other higher-priority features. We simply cannot do everything at the same time and give you 1Password 6 that's fully complete right now. We are choosing to support 1Password.com service first because it is much easier and faster to add and 1Password 4 remains available for local vaults.

    It is not logically to offer 1Password 6 with local vaults only and have no 1Password.com support at all where we have 1Password 4 already mature and stable with full local vault support. That's why 1Password 6 has 1Password.com support first and will gain support for local vault much later when we have the resources to do so.

    So someone who purchased windows, mac, and iOS for a big chunk of change would have to "subscribe" to a service.

    That is optional, 1Password.com service is not required, you can still use 1Password 4 for Windows to sync your local vaults with other platforms, no local vault support is being removed.

    The fact that one has to make a choice to leave 1Password and spend nearly 1-2 WEEKS migrating all of the data they've accumulated over the years or pay a $5 a month for a family of 5 (when I don't even NEED 5 licenses. Just 1) is a real stab in the back and incredible frustration.

    1Password.com Families is one of the plans we offer, we have 1Password.com Individuals plan as well, for 2.99$ per month if you sign up annually.

    It's not 5 licenses, there are no licensing involved for 1Password.com service. Each family member or just you, gets access to all 1Password apps and future upgrades at no extra costs. You can use any 1Password app on any platform without any limitations.

    We helped make 1Password great from the beginning and I will hold out on v4.x as long as I can, but it's depressing to know I am using abandonware for something so critical for my security.

    1Password 4 is not being abandoned and we're not risking your security at all, we will still ship all security updates as needed. 1Password 6 will replace 1Password 4 but it is not going to happen until we finish 1Password 6 with all features implemented as well as local vault/licensing support.

  • So, what this sounds like to me is - "we have already captured the revenue from users wanting the local vault functionality and need to focus our efforts on features that will produce additional and recurring revenue streams, so those will get dev attention first."

    The version of 1Password4 on Windows looks like it was developed in the Windows XP days and acts like it too. If you intended to treat Windows users as second-class citizens you should have made that clear in the dual-license purchasing process.

    • A disappointed paid user of licences for every platform you offer.
  • Agree with everything greg02 said. I mean I appreciate the long response, and I understand that they're still supporting v4.x but that still doesn't change the fact that it's basically going to be replaced by 1Password 6 which IMO offers nothing really new so far.

    I also purchased licenses for every platform (except Android?) and have enjoyed using them. I am trying to self-justify that it was worth the money. $2.99 for password management software per month (when purchased annually) for a single subscription is priced very expensively IMO. LastPass does this for $1 a month ($12 a year).

    One thing is for sure. When 1Password 6 is released, they are going to lose a large portion of the base that made them great. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but ultimately loyal paying users of software are the ones who invariably get screwed.

  • I just wanted to add my voice again to this. While I appreciate the long replies that you provide, I can't help but agree with these opinions (and, as you know, many others across these forums). I am not questioning your intentions because I honestly don't know them. I would like to emphasize that the impression projected to a big ase of license users is that you are trying to phase out local vaults in favour of shbscription accounts.

    Again, that my not be your intention, but the evidence at hand, starting from the lack of support for local vaults in windows and where all the efforts seem to be out at the moment, seems to suggest that despite comments otherwise, moves are being made on that direction. This coincides with a shift of policy in many other tech companies trying to switch to a predictable income flow through subscription services. A policy I personally don't like much.

    For security software of the caliber of 1Password, I think that a big base of users will never go with a web based service (out of principle) and will prefer to keep local vaults, where security is more our responsibility than based on trust on an online service.

    Not updating 1password6 to support local vaults for such a long time for windows does cry out "we don't want local vaults, we want you to subscribe". I am not ignoring all that you aida in previous answers, I am just honestly communicating the fact that such feelings grow in some portion of your user base.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Again, that my not be your intention, but the evidence at hand, starting from the lack of support for local vaults in windows and where all the efforts seem to be out at the moment, seems to suggest that despite comments otherwise, moves are being made on that direction.

    @Qutrit: Totally. I completely understand why anyone might feel that way, but I think that can distract us from the reality. Saying that there's a "lack of support for local vaults" doesn't make it so. I can't imagine that anyone would have argued that last year, and we have the same local vault support (in the form of 1Password 4) on Windows that we did then. I get that 1Password 4 is not a sexy new Windows 10 app. That's a big part of the reason we're building the new one, to take advantage of things we couldn't with the older codebase. But nothing has been taken away from you. You're just not getting something new. But given that it doesn't have the features you need/want anyway, we're really not at the point where you're missing out yet. To be clear, it's really great that you and others are interested enough in the new app to complain about this, and you can use it now if you really want to by signing up for a free trial. But if local vault support is the feature most import to you, 1Password 6 isn't what you need. And with regard to the future "direction", it's really impossible to say right now since, as Mike mentioned, we're adjusting our plan frequently based on development challenges and necessity. We're Agile, after all.

    For security software of the caliber of 1Password, I think that a big base of users will never go with a web based service (out of principle) and will prefer to keep local vaults, where security is more our responsibility than based on trust on an online service.

    I'm really glad you mentioned that, because it's a common misconception. In fact, while 1Password is designed to alleviate much of the burden and drudgery for you, security is just as much your responsibility with 1Password.com as it is using the standalone app and local vaults. Indeed, when you use 1Password, AgileBits never has access to your data, regardless of the setup you choose. Even with 1Password.com, your data is encrypted on your device, so all the server ever ends up with is an encrypted blob. And since the Account Key is created locally, your Master Password is only known by you, and neither is ever transmitted, no one — including AgileBits — has the means to decrypt the data. (You can read more details on how all of this works in our white paper.) This last part, where only you have the keys to your data, is what we've built 1Password on from the beginning, and doesn't change, regardless of how you choose to pay for and use 1Password, or how your data is sync'd. Certainly some folks won't want to use 1Password.com anyway — not everyone is willing to pay for a subscription, even if it's less than the cost of a decent sandwich per month — but as far as principles go, the facts tell a different story, as those haven't changed. And at the end of the day, if "web services" are really off the table, a piece of software that manages logins for them is irrelevant.

    Again, I understand where all of this comes from. In a perfect world, we'd have all the resources we need to have all of the features implemented on day one, and everyone would get what they want and be happy. But I'm not sure that an emotional argument is helpful when we're talking about ones and zeros, especially when 1Password 4 still contains all the ones and zeros we've paid for and have been using — many of us (myself included) for years. And I'll still be using it until I no longer need it.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    I also purchased licenses for every platform (except Android?) and have enjoyed using them. I am trying to self-justify that it was worth the money. $2.99 for password management software per month (when purchased annually) for a single subscription is priced very expensively IMO.

    @mia: You're absolutely right that there are other cheap (and free) options out there, and if cost is the chief concern, I'm not sure I can persuade you that 1Password.com (1Password in general) is "better". The value that we offer is built on responsive support, and the fact that we, in turn, are supported by our customers. We don't show ads, take outside investment, or sell customer data. We're an independent company that can only continue to exist if people pay us for our work. So when you want the new app, and it only supports the subscription service right now, then yes, I think it makes sense for us to suggest subscribing. Even if the new app did support local vaults, I think we should get paid for our work, as that's the only thing that's sustainable. And for folks like you that badly want the new stuff, a subscription is the best way to always have it — and at a monthly price less than what I paid for my cheap (but delicious) convenience store dinner a short while ago. You're totally right though that the new app doesn't have some features we all really want. So it seems like until it does, you'd be better off with what you already have. And on the plus side, that doesn't cost you any more money either.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member
    edited February 2017

    So, what this sounds like to me is - "we have already captured the revenue from users wanting the local vault functionality and need to focus our efforts on features that will produce additional and recurring revenue streams, so those will get dev attention first."

    @greg02: That's certainly one way to look at it, but I'm not sure that this stands up to scrutiny. After all, we could probably get more revenue by adding local vault support and selling licenses for 1Password 6. But subscription/license is really is beside the point, since if we substitute a specific version here, the result is the same:

    "we have already captured the revenue from 1Password 3 users and need to focus our efforts on features that will produce additional and recurring revenue streams, so 1Password 4 will get dev attention first."

    And that's kind of how the software business works at all. We're always going to prioritize new products, which require more work anyway, over legacy versions, which inherently are better established and more stable, requiring less. Maybe that doesn't make sense for all software, but I'm having trouble thinking of any counter examples.

    The version of 1Password4 on Windows looks like it was developed in the Windows XP days and acts like it too. If you intended to treat Windows users as second-class citizens you should have made that clear in the dual-license purchasing process. A disappointed paid user of licences for every platform you offer.

    I think that's a little harsh (it looks much worse on XP :tongue: ), but that's why we have a 30-day money-back guarantee on AgileBits Store purchases: because we all have different preferences and expectations. Shoot us an email at [email protected] and we'll see what we can do to help. :smile:

  • Thanks for linking the white paper. I didn't know about it (I hope you realize that not all users will be aware of these documents until directly told. The internet is big and our attention span finite). Knowledge is power and it feels good to know exactly how the security of software (that in the end you have to trust to do what it advertises) that one uses for their most valuable stuff, including financial data.

    I am not going to say that the subscription service doesn't have its value. It certainly does and I can see how families or teams is (as usual, according to my own criterion, of course) worth the money. For those of us that just want personal use, I still find the pricing of the individual account on the expensive side. If the price were half this much, I would probably make the transition (let's be honest, it does feel like 1password will abandon local vaults at some point and that makes user indeed consider switching to accounts or use a different software, and if we are even more honest, we could agree that that is within the plans of the company: subscription services are stable revenue and it is where most companies are going at the moment). I can understand your perspective (after all, you are not a non-profit! and you do have a quality product I must say). At the current price for individual accounts (even including the 6 month free offer) it is (I think) very pricey. My own opinion is that such a service should be around 50% of the families or teams one. Of course I am no insider and no expert in sales (My field is theoretical physics), with this I am just stating what price would sway me to start considering subscription versus local vault (I assume that you provide some means of exporting local vaults to subscription services without having to input everything again, right? I think the question is relevant since there is no windows version that supports the two services yet).

    I would have personally been happier if 1password were... I don't know.. more straightforward if the intention is to relegate local vaults to legacy versions? (as it seems is the case on windows). I think more transparency would be greatly appreciated to avoid misunderstandings and perhaps some people having the impression (right or wrong) that you are willfully keeping your userbase (that otherwise praises your product) ignorant. True or not, that impression is not the nicest possible that can be given and I think it could be easily changed. But hey.. (like with everything else in these messages) that's just me

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    Thanks for linking the white paper. I didn't know about it (I hope you realize that not all users will be aware of these documents until directly told. The internet is big and our attention span finite). Knowledge is power and it feels good to know exactly how the security of software (that in the end you have to trust to do what it advertises) that one uses for their most valuable stuff, including financial data.

    @Qutrit: Oh, totally! That's why I love hearing from 1Password users in the forums. There just isn't a good way to get all of this information out there (spamming and excessive info within the app would be annoying). Fortunately(?) most folks either aren't particularly interested and trust us to work out the details for them, or reach out to us with questions like these so we can provide answers and offer them additional resources. :)

    At the current price for individual accounts (even including the 6 month free offer) it is (I think) very pricey. My own opinion is that such a service should be around 50% of the families or teams one. Of course I am no insider and no expert in sales (My field is theoretical physics), with this I am just stating what price would sway me to start considering subscription versus local vault

    While we don't currently have plans to cut prices (or to enter your field!), we definitely appreciate the feedback! Personally (and again, this is just me), I enjoy seeing promotions like the ones we've offered in the past, like extra storage and members. I see this a lot with video games: Steam will have a sale, and you can get Game X at 30% off with bonus content included. I think one way of looking at it is that

    (I assume that you provide some means of exporting local vaults to subscription services without having to input everything again, right? I think the question is relevant since there is no windows version that supports the two services yet).

    Yep! While we definitely have more work to do on the import and export options in both 1Password.com and the new Windows app, currently we support CSV and 1PIF respectively.

    I would have personally been happier if 1password were... I don't know.. more straightforward if the intention is to relegate local vaults to legacy versions? (as it seems is the case on windows). I think more transparency would be greatly appreciated to avoid misunderstandings and perhaps some people having the impression (right or wrong) that you are willfully keeping your userbase (that otherwise praises your product) ignorant. True or not, that impression is not the nicest possible that can be given and I think it could be easily changed. But hey.. (like with everything else in these messages) that's just me

    I agree. We don't have anything new to say in this area now, but once things slow down and we're able to get into more planning for the future, we'll be sure to share more information. In the mean time, it's really good to hear from folks like you about your perspective and preferences. :blush:

This discussion has been closed.