Standalone Version at Mac Store?
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Now you're suggesting that it's a plain and logical fact to anyone that well encrypted data can't be broken. I'm sorry, but anyone who looks a bit further into this matter will come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as absolute certainty when it comes to safety of data.
@laptopleon: I apologize if I gave you that impression. To be clear, brute force attacks can break into our data...but not on a human timescale, so that makes it practically infeasible and not of much concern to those of us using long, strong, unique Master Passwords, which are further strengthened using PBKDF2.
Almost weekly we find out that data or software has been compromised. Last week it was a bug in cloud bleed that leaked data via https. Specially since Snowden, we all know that encryption on itself is just one of the components. When it comes to the heart of the matter, how many of us truly understand encryption techniques and how unbreakable they are? In the past, even the specialist have been mistaken. Even methodes that we assumed to be 'extremely hard to crack' and therefore being too time-consuming, later turned out to be broken, bypassed or back-door-ed.
That's a really good point, and it certainly behooves each of us to understand as much as we can when it comes to securing our most sensitive data. Crypto101 and “A Graduate Course in Applied Cryptography” (written by crypto/security professors) are great resources.
There are so many factors, even beside encryption itself. For example: AgileBits is Canadian and therefore is generally seen as safer than American products, but only if push comes to shove we will find out how much of a difference there really is between one country's secret service and another. I'm not accusing anyone and I'm a 1PW customer myself, but for example also in Europe I've seen how far intelligence services go to get their info. The US even bugged the data cables of the EU and tapped the 'encrypted' phone of German head of state Merkel. It would be quite naive to think the US are the only ones doing this. These secret services have truly huge resources and no-one knows what exactly they are doing. They are above the law. It's quite scary.
Fortunately cryptography is just math, and creating misguided laws, regardless of jurisdiction, doesn't weaken the encryption. We could hypothetically, of course, be legally required in the future to provide "back doors" or restrict the strength/type of encrypt we use, but we'll simply stop offering our security products (or go somewhere else) rather than compromise the security of ourselves and our customers. We use 1Password too, after all. And then we're talking about brute force attacks again, for which there does not exist today enough power in the grid to succeed at this in our lifetimes, even for 128-bit AES keys (1Password is using AES256).
Politics aside, using a central point where all passwords of 1PW users are stored is adding a weak spot rather than making things safer, from a technical point of view. It at least makes it a lot easier to find and collect all logins.
Sorry. I did get a bit political there. I didn't say this explicitly earlier, but it goes back to my previous post:
- 1Password.com does not store "all passwords of 1PW users"; it stores only encrypted databases.
- The data of any given 1Password user is encrypted locally on their device before it is transmitted.
- The "keys" used to encrypt this data (and therefore to decrypt it) are never transmitted.
Because these are only possessed by individual 1Password users, someone would need to get the full database from our servers, the individual Account Keys from each user, and find out the Master Passwords of all of them as well in order to accomplish what you're suggesting. To say that this is infeasible is putting it mildly.
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Goodness Brenty @brenty , you just never give it up do you.
@toasted: When it comes to security, no. We take this very seriously. If we didn't, I wouldn't be using 1Password myself, as it's not "just" customer data that's at stake here: it's our own as well.
I just think its prudent not to put my data on your servers. I don’t appreciate the AB responses that imply I just don’t know what is good for me… colloquially… you don’t understand giving us your passwords is better for you and its just so, so safe and simple
I'm sorry if I offended you, but it would be negligent of me to not address your concerns.
“anyone can understand and appreciate” – but its just talk, Agilebits offer no guarantees (how could they).
You don't have to take my word for it. As I mentioned above, Crypto101 and “A Graduate Course in Applied Cryptography” (written by crypto/security professors) are great resources for understanding this stuff — especially since you seem interested in security to begin with! But ultimately if you're not able to trust AgileBits, you shouldn't use 1Password, because you're implicitly relying on us for your security. That said, we've always been very open about our security model, and with 3rd party audits and security white paper, I think that there are good reasons to trust 1Password with our most sensitive data; but that's something that each of us needs to decide for ourselves. Because it's your data.
Here are a few organisations that failed to keep their customer data safe in the last couple of years. I am sure that every CEO and CTO of these companies said, and still says, they were secure. [...] Criminals are attracted to these sites in part because of the massive trove of valuable data available to be stolen if they are successful….thefts impacted 145 million active users at Ebay, 83 Million at JP Morgan, 177 Million accounts at Linkedin. At DoJ they lost data on 10,000 Department of Homeland Security employees one day, then data on 20,000 FBI employees the next day and so on. But then again, maybe Agilebits have more highly skilled security technicians and depth of resources than the organisations above. If so, good luck to you.
We have good people, but AgileBits is not infallible. So we've designed 1Password.com (and 1Password vaults historically) with the expectation that someone might get the database someday. And you're right that the stakes are much higher with 1Password.com, since we're hosting the data for so many of our customers. We're also using many of the same web technologies which others do, so it's possible that a weakness could be found that would allow someone access to the server to get the database. If such a flaw is found, we want to know before it's exploited, which is why we have 3rd parties auditing our systems and have bounties for those that report issues...but you'd also be right to think that this isn't enough. It goes back to my previous post, but I didn't say this explicitly:
- 1Password.com does not store "all passwords of 1PW users"; it stores only encrypted databases.
- The data of any given 1Password user is encrypted locally on their device before it is transmitted.
- The "keys" used to encrypt this data (and therefore to decrypt it) are never transmitted.
Because these are only possessed by individual 1Password users, someone would need to get the full database from our servers, the individual Account Keys from each user, and find out the Master Passwords of all of them as well in order to not only get the database, but be able to decrypt it. Many of those companies, understandably, don't think of themselves as security companies tasked with protecting customer data (well, perhaps the do now). That's not the business they're in ostensibly. But the reality is that anyone on the internet is sort of in the security business, whether they want to be (or realize it) or not. So if there's a difference between AgileBits and the others in your list, it's not that we're perfect or "better", but perhaps that we're more paranoid. Our customers expect no less.
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Reading it all back, I'd like to add that I don't want to be too negative. If AgileBits chooses to do this (higher price, obligatory monthly subscription, server based system), it's their good right. However, it's not per se the best development for all users and probably not for me.
I'd like to store my logins and secure data locally, pay for what I use, and rather opt for the classical 'buy it and own it'.
When in the near future I'm more or less forced by a system update that needs a 'major' update of 1PW, into a monthly subscription model, higher price and / or online server method, I will respectfully decline and look for an application that better suits my peace of mind and budget.
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@laptopleon: I don't think anyone can argue with that. We each have to decide out what works best for us. I just didn't want you to turn your back on something that seems to have served you well due to a misunderstanding. Thanks for listening, and for sharing your own perspective. :)
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