1Password Families vs. Keeper Family Plan

LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member
edited December 2017 in Lounge

Please don't beat me up for asking this as I've been a loyal 1Password customer since back in the "1P" days when it all first started. But I just downloaded the trial version of Keeper on my Mac and the iPhone version and I have to say I'm very impressed with the app and its interface. That said, I will honestly listen to anything you have to say about why 1Password might be better, regardless of the "pretty" aspect that might be swaying me a little. I'm not asking you to bash Keeper...but just educate me in why 1Password is better. Also, Keeper actually has better reviews for both the Mac and iPhone versions in their respective Apple stores. Again, I'm not jumping ship...I just would like to know why 1Password is better. The prices are the same, so that's not an issue. One other thing, Keeper has instant chat support, email ticket support, and telephone support, all of which I've tested and they truly work. Thanks in advance for any comments.


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Comments

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member
    edited December 2017

    @LarryMcJ: Thanks for getting in touch! I think it's great that you're doing your due-diligence with regard to choosing an app to protect your important data. :chuffed:

    Now, I can't really speak for any other product or service, only 1Password, since that's my area of expertise. And the real answer, of course, is going to be different for everyone. But I'll do my best to highlight the things we regularly hear from users about what they love about 1Password:

    • Support

    I think this is one of the most important aspects of 1Password. Time is money, after all. Whether there is a problem or if you just have a quick question, we're here for you. And we always love customer feedback. And there isn't a fee or a limit to our love and support of our awesome customers.

    Now, I know you mentioned telephone and chat support, and those can be nice for instant gratification...but we don't offer those because we don't have the means to do them well currently: we're not corporate-owned or backed by venture capitalists, and we invest our revenues into hiring the best people we can to continually improve 1Password across the board, and offer personalized support. Most often, when I've used telephone and chat support, it seems like I'm being read to off of a script, or straight-up talking to a bot. Or I waste a lot of my time waiting, often on hold. So while we do hope to offer other support options in the future, I'd rather we didn't if it's at the expense of humanity. Nothing against the machines, but I don't feel that they really understand me...yet. ;)

    • Design

    As you mentioned, "pretty" is going to pretty subjective, as everyone has different taste...so This comes back to the notion that time is money. If everyone can start using 1Password quickly and easily understand new features when they are rolled out, then they save money on time that would otherwise be lost trying to figure something out or troubleshoot. If price is the only consideration, there are plenty of free tools available, but our time is more valuable than that. And of course we're always here to help!

    And...while normally I'd be a bit shy about saying this, since I can't take credit for the work, I don't mind pointing out that 1Password is literally the only password manager to ever receive an Apple design award (also, Ars Technica, among others). That said, we know that 1Password isn't perfect (just ask our designers, who are constantly in a state of horror as their old designs live on in old version long past their prime!), so we're always working to refine not only the look and feel but also usability and ease of 1Password. We want to make security accessible to as many people as possible, because everyone deserves it, and technology shouldn't intimidate non-techy people from being safe online.

    • Security

    Our security architecture means that a family organizer can recover accounts for other family members. We at AgileBits can never do that. We simply cannot perform a traditional "password reset" for you. With traditional password reset mechanisms, your secrets are only as secure as all your family members' email accounts. With 1Password, account recovery can only be initiated by a family organizer. Learn more in the 1Password Security Design White Paper.

    • Privacy

    Last but definitely not least, we have a proven track record and sustainable prices so we can serve you for years to come without exploiting you or your data. It’s possible for a company to do things differently, but then they might need investors’ money, a buyer with deeper pockets, or — worst of all — advertising money at the expense of your privacy. We have gone out of our way to build 1Password so that we have no information about your data or about how you use 1Password. It is not merely that we choose not to collect or use data about you; we have designed our systems so that, for the most part, we don’t even have the capability to collect data about you or how you use 1Password. Learn more about 1Password privacy.

    That's 1Password in a nutshell. But as far as reviews, I encourage you to read them. It's tough online sometimes to differentiate between legitimate reviews and fakes, and also just find reviews that are useful. Personally, I use Fakespot to help with this, especially with so much review spam on shopping sites. But more important to me is to read some representative reviews at the high, middle, and low end of the ranking. For example, I may see a lot of five star reviews for a product, but on looking at them, they are not helpful to me: irrelevant information, raving about things I don't care about, etc. Similarly, I often find the worst reviews complain about lack of features I don't need or expect after reading the product description.

    So I suppose that the reason I like 1Password in the first place is because the things about it which I value are the same as others, outlined above. If there are different aspects of a password manager that you value more highly, then another might be a better option for you. So it's good that there's competition out there, both for users, and for those of us working on them, since everyone wins when we're challenged to be our best.

    No matter what you decide, we appreciate your support over the years. We couldn't do what we do without you and the rest of our awesome customers. If you decide to stick with 1Password, that's great. We've got even more in the works for you. And if you feel that another product is a better fit for you right now, we'll keep working to make 1Password even better to win you over again in the future. Cheers! :)

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member
    edited December 2017

    @brenty - Thanks so much for such a detailed response that provides detailed answers to my question, but certainly shows your dedication to 1Password. And honestly, after using 1Password so long and even helping a little in the early 1Password forums many years ago, I also feel very dedicated to it myself. Even though you responded to this in four hours, If I'm being honest, I do feel that with the huge success of 1Password, sometimes support (in general) is a bit slower than in years gone by. But on the positive side, I also feel your support is much more professional than others. I may have received immediate chat, phone and email support request tests I made with Keeper, but as you said, part of the replies seemed robotic. I rarely have a question about 1Password these days, but it's comforting to know that whoever responds, does so professionally.

    I think what drives me to occasionally try out the top contenders to 1Password is my eternal quest to fix the couple of things that 1Password simply can't do. More than anything (and you'll recall this one as you tried your best to help me with it)...is that 1Password still will not automatically login to the Apple Discussion Groups (even though it used to do this just fine). I have tried everything possible, but on two separate Macs here it simply won't happen. I use Autofill, which puts my email address in the proper field. But I still have to then use the Safari extension to fill in the password, and then I still need to click the arrow for submitting my credentials. Even the Safari extension will not submit automatically. And, I've tried it with two other browsers...same thing.

    The other (similar) issue is there is no way 1Password will use Autofill to fill my credentials in 16 particular sites I frequent that use a JS popup window for the login credentials. Autofill takes me to the site, but I still have to click on "Sign In" and then use the Safari extension to fill/submit. Mercifully, on these sites clicking the site name just once in the extension fills and submits automatically...unlike the Apple Discussion groups.

    I won't be switching, but I sure hope I can find a solution one day for logging into the Apple Discussion Groups. I don't think any password app can overcome the JS window issue, but I can still hope. Thanks again for taking the time to provide such a detailed response.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @LarryMcJ: To be clear, I wasn't picking on their support in particular, as I have no experience with it. But I've had occasion to interact with many chatboxes on websites which for all I could tell were just a script running in my own browser. :lol:

    I really appreciate the kind words, but we're also in agreement that we can do better. We're not satisfied if anyone waits longer than they want to. I think we all have a different threshold and expectations, and frankly I'm thrilled in most cases when I get a response from a support query in less than a day...but then again, when something is really wrong and stressing me out, I'm sure I'll prefer "now" to "later" any day! We can't always respond to everyone with chat-like efficiency, but we do try to give each person our full attention and put care into our replies, as ultimately we're dealing with people and their most sensitive data. But, by the same token, while we don't want to rush in a delicate situation, the quicker we can respond and resolve an issue or answer an important question, the quicker we can put that person at ease, and they can get back to what they'd rather be doing. So it's something we're continually striving to improve, and I really appreciate your honest feedback on this subject. :blush:

    I'm also glad you brought up some of the issues you've been having with 1Password. Regarding iCloud, we're aware that 1Password isn't able to fully Open & Fill there since the form takes a bit to load. Hopefully we'll be able to find a solution for that...but if you're using Apple's Two-Factor Authentication (as everyone should, frankly) there will always be an additional step that 1Password cannot help with there unfortunately. Definitely stick in my craw a bit too, so if there's something we can do to make it work more smoothly we will. I am, however, able to get 1Password to fill and submit there in the mean time using ⌘ \ once the page loads, so maybe we need to revisit this in the browser filling category. I'd also encourage you to open new discussions there for any other site-specific filling issues you have. Even if we couldn't find a solution in the past, sites are always changing and we're constantly improving 1Password in every way we can, so it never hurts to take a fresh look. Feel free to @-mention me. I'll be happy to take a look. :sunglasses:

  • @LarryMcJ personally I think you're mad to trust an American company (Keeper) and I'm surprised nobody else has pointed this out to you.

    Also take a look at their privacy policy - there's plenty more bad/worrying stuff where that came from:

    Keeper Security collects and logs aggregate user statistics and website traffic. Such information includes website traffic statistics, date and time of visits, browser type used to access the service, frequency of visits and to which pages, etc. We use this information to improve the services delivered to our customers, to track and diagnose performance problems and administer the website.

    In certain situations, Keeper Security may be required to disclose personal data in response to lawful requests by public authorities, including to meet national security or law enforcement requirements.

    The use of cookies by our partners, affiliates, tracking utility company, service providers is not covered by our privacy statement. We do not have access or control over these cookies. Our partners, affiliates, tracking utility company, service providers use session ID cookies to make it easier for you to navigate our site.

    Our web site includes social media features, such as the Facebook Like button and widgets, such as the ShareThis button or interactive mini-programs that run on our site. These features may collect your IP address, which page you are visiting on our site, and may set a cookie to enable the feature to function properly.

    From their terms and conditions:

    Furthermore, the threat of disclosing or actual disclosure of any purported weakness, security flaw or degradation of our Software or systems (which are proprietary and property of Keeper Security) in a public forum - is prohibited.

    If we determine that an entity or individual has attempted to reverse engineer, enter, infiltrate or breach our Software, infrastructure and/or a user's device (which could include a breach or weaknesses in an operating system created by or utilized by one of our strategic OEM partners), we will take swift action - either in the form of a lawsuit and/or a disclosure to appropriate local, state and federal law enforcement agencies.

    Keeper Security will never disclose such data on an individual or identifiable basis to third parties except when we must comply with laws that require such disclosure to law enforcement authorities or other government third party officials such as subpoenas, or we believe in good faith that disclosure is necessary to protect our rights, protect your safety or the safety of others and to investigate fraud.

    I can't emphasise strongly enough how much you need to steer clear from Keeper. They threaten security researchers, they track almost every aspect of your use of the service for sales/marketing and being a US-based company they can be forced to disclose your passwords (even if they can't unhash your master password they could technically grant access to your vault!)

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member

    @darrenNZ - Thanks for your comments. But as I mentioned in my previous post, I won't be switching from 1Password, and in fact, never intended to switch. That post also mentioned the reasons I occasionally look at 1Password's top competition. No password app is perfect, including 1Password, especially when a single problem with it is amplified because it's the one thing you need it to do multiple times daily...and it doesn't (referring to the inability to directly login to Apple Discussion Groups). But I'm sure the Agile Bits folks will eventually figure out this one. Additionally, I put a lot of emphasis on UI and UX, and I think we'll both agree these haven't changed greatly in all of 1Password's life. They've certainly been improved a lot...but the basic look/feel of the the app differs little from what I remember of the original 1P app. Again, just an opinion, as for many folks the appearance of an app makes no difference at all, but as a retired geek, I'm well aware that "pretty" isn't everything.

    And perhaps I'm different than most users, but if there's a valid legal reason for government officials to see what's in my 1Password vaults...then have at it. I've never done anything unlawful so I don't have anything to worry about in that regard and in today's world, I've pretty much given up on privacy...there isn't much one can hide, even if they want to. I suppose for many users it's a plus that 1Password isn't developed in the US, but I'd still be using it if it was.

    The bottom line is I'm very happy with 1Password and the great folks at Agile Bits...and I have been since the app's early days. But in doing some due diligence and testing of another app, I simply wanted an honest opinion about a few things, which I received from @brenty. Hopefully this explains my original post

  • I understand the gist of your original point @LarryMcJ although I thought it worthwhile to highlight the particular negatives of Keeper. :)

    The main problem that I find with 1Password is that it's difficult for average, non-technical users to get to grips with. I find it easy enough but many people I know can't understand its concept, the integration with iOS, Android, Windows or MacOS and the user interface and initial setup is very confusing.

    1Password could remedy this by having up-to-date instructional videos showing step by step how to use the application.

    As 1Password are based in Canada it's much easier for me to trust them because we know from all the leaks that they can't be legally forced to provide a backdoor.

    You might not think that there's a a valid legal reason for government officials to see what's in my 1Password vaults but with 1Password, they can't (unless 1Password go rogue and modify their software). If government officials can't gain access then neither can hackers unless they modified the application to capture the master password and secret key and then redistributed it without being noticed.

    Because Keeper through their own admission are technically capable of complying with government orders then hackers can abuse this too. That's why the 1Password model is superior and why it's not government officials that you need to be concerned about.

    I believe that the reason you can't login to the Apple Discussion Groups is because of their use of iframes. KeePassXC (free open-source software) uses auto-type which simulates keyboard presses so that should allow a one-click auto-fill of your username and password into Apple Discussion Groups. Give it a try.

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member
    edited December 2017

    Your points were all well-taken, and will likely help someone else searching for similar help. And yes, as @brenty mentioned awhile back in a different thread I posted, iFrames are the culprit with the Apple Discussion Group login, that and I think he said a timing problem. I think they'll eventually fix this one.

  • bundtkatebundtkate

    Team Member
    edited December 2017

    @LarryMcJ: Specifically regarding the interface, I think you'd be surprised how much has changed over the years. I compare it to watching someone grow a beard. My boyfriend has two years worth of beard now, but since I've seen him every day since he started growing it, I hardly noticed any differences. When we went to visit his folks not too long ago, on the other hand, you'd think he had some sort of wild animal attached to his face by their reactions. I later looked at an old photo of him and could kind of understand why they were started, but it isn't noticeable in real time. Just so with 1Password. I recently watched a video with an older version of 1Password and was surprised at how different it looked. There's a common theme, but the little changes really do add up. Of course, I'm talking Mac here for the most part. If you take a peek at the difference between 1Password 4 and 1Password 6 on Windows, then this is a completely different story. The difference there is night and day. All in all, I like the gradual changes. It allows us to modernize without changing an important workflow for our customers all at once, but maybe there's more we can do there to give 1Password an updated look without major alterations to how you use it. Perhaps something for the design team to ponder? :wink:

    @darrenNZ: With all respect to Keeper, the U.S. is a tough place to be a company that stores data in any way. The laws are dodgy at best and while companies like Apple can stand up to authorities (and have my respect for doing so), that's a tougher sell for the smaller fish and I'd personally not criticize them for not wanting to take that risk (so long as they keep their customers informed). The forum is likely no place for politics, at least for me as an AgileBits team member, but I can say that I'm absolutely delighted to hear you trust 1Password to respect your privacy. We absolutely do put a lot of thought into privacy and design 1Password to keep your personal data out of our hands whenever possible. We can't prevent governments from asking for your data or putting laws in place that would require us to hand it over, but we can't hand over what we don't have and certainly do everything in our power to keep what we have to an absolute minimum. I'm glad those efforts are appreciated. Thanks for your support and kind words. :+1:

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member

    @bundtkate - You may have misread something I wrote as it seems you think I haven't looked at or used 1Password in a long time. I have been a loyal 1Password customer and user almost since the app was first created and currently use the Families subscription. I started back when 1Password was called "1P" and I've used it every single day of my life...couldn't live without it. My question was simply that I liked the UI of Keeper so was trying it. For many good reasons, some brought up by @brenty and @darrenNZ, and other discovered by myself, I am sticking with 1Password. Even if you drive a Rolls Royce, sometimes a new Mercedes catches your eye and you have to drive it around the block to realize it's not as good

  • bundtkatebundtkate

    Team Member
    edited December 2017

    @LarryMcJ: Oh, not at all! I definitely read that you've been with us a while (thank you!) and I'm sorry if I gave the impression to the contrary. :blush: I was just commenting on interface changes in 1Password over the years and how I personally didn't realize just how much has changed until I had cause to go back and look at what was. You had said in response to darrenNZ:

    I put a lot of emphasis on UI and UX, and I think we'll both agree these haven't changed greatly in all of 1Password's life.

    I many ways, I still agree with you. We have a signature look to be sure, but I recently had a customer send me a video about 1Password 3 for Mac and found myself realizing that the UI has changes a lot more than I had thought, which was an interesting experience I thought you might appreciate as a long-time customer. A trip through the way back machine can be fun at times.

    All the same, we'll never begrudge you a test drive. I'm glad to hear we're still the Rolls Royce in that analogy and hope we continue to be for years to come. :chuffed:

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    @LarryMcJ: I know some other folks here at AgileBits will not be thrilled to see this, but I was recently reminiscing about version 1.0:

    I don't believe we had a full time designer at that time (perhaps none at all, if I'm remembering correctly). :lol:

    Anyway, that's sort of beside the point, but I thought it might be fun. The real reason I wanted to follow up here is because I realize I glossed over some important things earlier for the sake of brevity (yeah I know, I rambled on a bit anyway, but just imagine!) and giving a more general answer to the question "Why 1Password?"

    But right up there with security, privacy is a fundamental part of 1Password's design. So our approach is to avoid having sensitive information in the first place wherever possible. For example, even with 1Password.com accounts we have no idea about the names of items or vaults. This can get confusing/frustrating when trying to troubleshoot at times, but it's important that we know as little as possible. To be clear, it is within our power to turn over encrypted data, but there is a high bar that must be met before we will even do that, in accordance with Canadian Law:

    Information for Law Enforcement

    But this, to me, is the most important thing as a 1Password user myself:

    Secure Data is owned exclusively by our customers and we have no plaintext access to this information. This means we have no means by which we are capable of providing decrypted information which may be stored in 1Password account vaults.

    We just don't have the kind of information that would be useful to anyone targeting 1Password users, whether that be malicious hackers or governments, and that makes 1Password a much less interesting target for both.

    I also wasn't aware that security researchers aren't always welcomed by the competition since we're so used to working closely with that community. Apart from our own efforts, we participate in external audits and cooperate with independent security researchers to find any flaws so we can fix them. We know we're not perfect, so 1Password isn't going to be either. The best thing we can do is find out about our shortcomings and address them. We're 1Password users too, so this is not only for our customers' security – which is paramount — but for our own as well. otherwise we wouldn't use 1Password ourselves! :blush:

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member
    edited December 2017

    @bundtkate & @brenty - I think what happens when you use an app multiple times daily, for so many years, as @bundtkate said...you don't really notice the minor changes that are implemented from one update to the next. This is most likely what happened to me along the way. Sure, we all notice each major version upgrade, but there are scores of little things changing for the better between those major upgrades.

    Ultimately, and regardless of a couple of UI features I may like better in another app, 1Password is still the Rolls Royce in terms of functionality and security, and I'm happy to be driving it :)

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    I hear you! Thanks for choosing 1Password, and the kind words! I think we see the parts that could use a tune-up more than anyone else, so we'll keep at it to make it work even more smoothly so Mercedes its just a distant memory for you. ;)

  • @LarryMcJ
    Everybody

    Microsoft is forcing users to install a critically flawed password manager

    "Win 10 version of Keeper has 16-month-old bug allowing sites to steal passwords."

    Here's the research by Google's Tavis Ormandy.

    Let's see if Keeper bring a lawsuit against him for disclosing this critical vulnerability.

    Everybody: do not use Keeper.

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member
    edited December 2017

    :)

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member
    edited December 2017

    @darrenNZ: Thank you! That is the weirdest thing I've heard of in a long time, even from Microsoft. I'm generally a fan of Windows 10 and their overall new direction as a company, but I do find this troubling. I haven't run into that myself on any of my Windows installs, but it's good to know so I can keep an eye out!

  • @brenty

    Keeper is a private company but they pay Microsoft to have it installed on Windows 10 computers much like other software developers do.

    I've noticed Keeper installed on Windows 10 Home, Pro and Enterprise versions. It's installed alongside the other crapware that Microsoft bundle by default. You can manually remove it by right clicking on it in the start menu.

    The quick way of removing all non-Microsoft apps is to run a quick PowerShell script on a fresh install;

    Get-AppxPackage | where-object {$_.publisher –notlike "*microsoft*"} | Remove-AppxPackage

    Anything automatically installed via the Windows Store which is not developed by Microsoft will be uninstalled.

    I won't go into any more information about Keeper suffice to say it's got a number of known issues and this critical flaw is a repeat of an already-reported vulnerability - they never learn.

  • LarryMcJLarryMcJ Senior Member

    I'm glad my friends here at AgileBits gave me some convincing advice back when I started this thread. Another instance of "all that glitters is not gold" :)

  • @darrenNZ great, I just built a computer as a gift and put windows 10 Pro on it. I’ll just wait until he opened it, and I’ll remove it.

  • Where do I find keeper in windows 10? I am unable to locate it

  • @rlgleason51

    Run PowerShell as an administrator, type in the following:

    Get-AppxPackage | where-object {$_.publisher –notlike "*microsoft*"}

    This will list every non-Microsoft application installed via the Windows Store.

    Unfortunately because of how Windows 10 works it installs these things over time. Because of all the negative publicity Microsoft may have temporarily suspended the automatic install of Keeper, I don't know.

    @prime

    First thing I do is remove all the crapware.

    Wait a few hours for all the applications to automatically download (annoying I know) and then run the following command via PowerShell as an administrator:

    Get-AppxPackage | where-object {$_.publisher –notlike "*microsoft*"} | Remove-AppxPackage

    This will delete every non-Microsoft application installed via the Windows Store.

  • brentybrenty

    Team Member

    The quick way of removing all non-Microsoft apps is to run a quick PowerShell script on a fresh install;
    Get-AppxPackage | where-object {$_.publisher –notlike "*microsoft*"} | Remove-AppxPackage
    Anything automatically installed via the Windows Store which is not developed by Microsoft will be uninstalled.

    @darrenNZ: That's a great tip! I didn't know it was that easy. :love:

This discussion has been closed.