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Replacing a Linked Document

oshloel
oshloel
Community Member

I just made the transition to a Families Membership after years of using 1PW standalone. The manual migration process went just fine for the most part - migrating items in the standalone vaults' Trash and re-establishing Favorites did require some additional work.

I'm now trying to figure out the nuances of Documents & Links vs the old standalone Attachments. I fully understand many of the differences and the added flexibility potential provided by Links and the separate Documents category. The key issue for me is mastering Links in a fashion that doesn't contribute material added burden to the workflow vs Attachments; particularly when it comes to replacing/updating a linked document with a newer version.

One significant issue I've found is that the links created by migration of an item with an attachment are not bi-directional. If I click on a non-document item, I see the clickable Related Item link; however, if I view the Document, I have no idea to which item (or if I use the flexibility of Documents) to which items the document is linked without having to manually go create all the links in the Document item one by one. I know there have been may requests for some way to 1) return "Back" to the originally clicked item, and 2) to determine which items (plural) are linked to a given Document. Add my vote for a solution to this shortcoming.

The more important issue/question for me is how does one easily and quickly update or replace a document with an new version? With standalone attachments, it was just a few quick clicks: navigate to the item, click edit, click the red Delete symbol on the old attachment, drag/drop the replacement, and click save.

The two ways I've found thus far to do the same with Documents and Links are a true PITA requiring many clicks, movement between items & documents, likely a great memory as to where a document was linked and individually trashing and relinking the file; particularly, if the document is linked to more than one item.

One way I've found is to upload the replacement as a new document, trash the old document version and then 1) hope you can remember every other item it was linked to since that's not shown anywhere and finally 2) edit each linked item separately to trash the old version link and add the new version link.

The only other way I've discovered is to add the new document version to the (or one of the) linked item(s) via Add a new Document, trash the old version link in that Item, go to the Documents category, find the old version, trash it and then finally hope you can remember whether the Document was linked anywhere else so you can go to each of those items individually to delete the old link and add the new link.

PLEASE tell me I'm missing something and there's a better way than contorting myself into a knot!


1Password Version: 6.8.8
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: OS X 10.13.4
Sync Type: Families Membership

Comments

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    I just made the transition to a Families Membership after years of using 1PW standalone. The manual migration process went just fine for the most part - migrating items in the standalone vaults' Trash and re-establishing Favorites did require some additional work.

    @oshloel: That's really interesting. I don't know that anyone has ever brought this up before. Can you be more specific about the trouble you encountered? I'm not having any trouble migrating Favorites here, and I'm actually really curious about your Trash comment.

    I'm now trying to figure out the nuances of Documents & Links vs the old standalone Attachments. I fully understand many of the differences and the added flexibility potential provided by Links and the separate Documents category. The key issue for me is mastering Links in a fashion that doesn't contribute material added burden to the workflow vs Attachments; particularly when it comes to replacing/updating a linked document with a newer version.

    If you use the "Add New File" button when editing an item, it will both create a new Document item for that file and also link it to that Document. Does that help?

    One significant issue I've found is that the links created by migration of an item with an attachment are not bi-directional. If I click on a non-document item, I see the clickable Related Item link; however, if I view the Document, I have no idea to which item (or if I use the flexibility of Documents) to which items the document is linked without having to manually go create all the links in the Document item one by one. I know there have been may requests for some way to 1) return "Back" to the originally clicked item, and 2) to determine which items (plural) are linked to a given Document. Add my vote for a solution to this shortcoming.

    Thanks for the feedback! This is something we'd like as well. :)

    The more important issue/question for me is how does one easily and quickly update or replace a document with an new version? With standalone attachments, it was just a few quick clicks: navigate to the item, click edit, click the red Delete symbol on the old attachment, drag/drop the replacement, and click save.

    it works essentially the same as what you described, with the different being that the Document will be a separate item in the end. I think there's definitely room for improvement though, so please let us know if there are specific ways you'd like for us to improve the workflow. :)

    The two ways I've found thus far to do the same with Documents and Links are a true PITA requiring many clicks, movement between items & documents, likely a great memory as to where a document was linked and individually trashing and relinking the file; particularly, if the document is linked to more than one item.

    I guess maybe it depends on exactly what you're doing. Based on your description, I'm not sure where you're actually running into trouble, but perhaps there are details you're leaving out that are important.

    One way I've found is to upload the replacement as a new document, trash the old document version and then 1) hope you can remember every other item it was linked to since that's not shown anywhere and finally 2) edit each linked item separately to trash the old version link and add the new version link.
    The only other way I've discovered is to add the new document version to the (or one of the) linked item(s) via Add a new Document, trash the old version link in that Item, go to the Documents category, find the old version, trash it and then finally hope you can remember whether the Document was linked anywhere else so you can go to each of those items individually to delete the old link and add the new link.
    PLEASE tell me I'm missing something and there's a better way than contorting myself into a knot!

    It sounds like maybe the problem you're having isn't that Documents are different than attachments. After all, you simply couldn't do something like that with attachments in the first place: they can only be connected to a single item. So perhaps you're running into issues due to the complexity of how you're setting things up yourself with numerous links between different items. So for now maybe you're just making more work for yourself than in the past. I think there are things we can do in the future that can help with that though. Thanks so much for sharing your feedback on this, and I'd also be interested to hear specific examples in case it's something we can accommodate in the future. :)

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    That's really interesting. I don't know that anyone has ever brought this up before. Can you be more specific about the trouble you encountered? I'm not having any trouble migrating Favorites here, and I'm actually really curious about your Trash comment.

    @brenty I was migrating two vaults; one was my old Primary vault and the other was a secondary Shared vault that my wife and I shared, so I had to use the manual migration process. It certainly was easy enough: click on an item, Select All, move to the new Private or Shared vault.

    What I found in doing so was the Favorites in my Primary -> Private move were retained, but the Favorites in my Shared-> Shared transfer lost their designation. I didn't have very many, so they were easy to find and fix. No big deal.

    I also had 50-60 items in the Trash between the two vaults. None of those items transferred with the manual Select All process since they didn't get selected in the first place. No surprise there; however, getting those items moved became a bit of a process since it appears they can only be restored to their original vault/categories. The issue became finding them if I did that. I read this post https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/70813/moving-items-out-of-the-trash but Export wouldn't work for Trashed items. My next thought was to tag them before the restore, but a new tag cannot be created directly; only by typing the new tag name into the Tags field in an item, except that can't be done for an item in the Trash. Ultimately, I got them moved to a new account based "Archived Items" vault by creating an new Test item and Trash tag, selecting all Trash items, dragging them to the new tag, restoring them, finding them via the tag and then transferring them to the new Archive vault. Did I miss an easier way to get this done?

    If you use the "Add New File" button when editing an item, it will both create a new Document item for that file and also link it to that Document. Does that help?

    Yes, I was aware of that. One "feature" of that I don't like is that doing so changes the name of the added document by appending the name of the item to which it was added. That creates some really long names, isn't appropriate if a document gets linked to more than one item, and feels like a crude workaround for not having bi-directional links.

    I believe a much better modification would be automatically adding a link in the document item to the item to which it was attached by Add New File without changing the Document name itself. That might not be a true bi-directional link but sure seems like it would get the job done in that the relationship between the document and item would be clear regardless of which of the two you are viewing and it would be easy to move between them.

    It sounds like maybe the problem you're having isn't that Documents are different than attachments. After all, you simply couldn't do something like that with attachments in the first place: they can only be connected to a single item.

    Granted, taking advantage of documents' expanded flexibility by linking a document to multiple items increases complexity no matter how it's done; however, given that it is something that AgileBits is highlighting as an advantage of accounts, it needs to be easier to manage than it is currently. Bi-directional links, or at least automatically creating two uni-directional links, in each item involved in the linking process would appear to address some of the complexity.

    It sounds like maybe the problem you're having isn't that Documents are different than attachments. After all, you simply couldn't do something like that with attachments in the first place: they can only be connected to a single item.

    As for the specific case of replacing/updating a document such as annual updates for auto registrations, membership cards etc. I would love to see a "Replace/Update Document" option when editing a Document. Currently, a Document has the same two "Related Item" choices as any other item: Link Existing and Add New File. To some degree, Add New File seems redundant (adding a document to a document) but there may be a use case in there somewhere.

    It seems there has to be an underlying "attached" or included file associated with a Document. That pdf is in 1PW somewhere! I suggest either Add New File be changed or a new "Replace Document" option be added which would allow the underlying attached/included pdf/jpg/txt/whatever file to be replaced without changing the Document's UUID and thus breaking any existing links. The capability to change the underlying attached item already exists in the standalone versions and of course any item's fields can be edited without requiring a new UUID be assigned.

    Regards,
    Eric

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    @brenty ?? It appears your last reply is simply a repeat of my response, some quoted and some not. Was that intended?

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @oshloel: Sorry, I mangled something here. Standby. :lol:

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    @brenty ...standing by... ;)

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @oshloel: Yeah, I'm really sorry about that. I had this whole thing written up and I don't know what happened. And, at that point, when you asked what was going on, I was about ready to pass out. So I wanted to rest and take the time to give you a proper response today. Thanks for your patience. :blush:

    I was migrating two vaults; one was my old Primary vault and the other was a secondary Shared vault that my wife and I shared, so I had to use the manual migration process. It certainly was easy enough: click on an item, Select All, move to the new Private or Shared vault. What I found in doing so was the Favorites in my Primary -> Private move were retained, but the Favorites in my Shared-> Shared transfer lost their designation. I didn't have very many, so they were easy to find and fix. No big deal.

    You're totally right, and I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. I'm sorry about that. Indeed, we've focused on Primary → Personal/Private for the migration process since that's pretty much universal. So the secondary vault situation is not ideal. :(

    I also had 50-60 items in the Trash between the two vaults. None of those items transferred with the manual Select All process since they didn't get selected in the first place. No surprise there; however, getting those items moved became a bit of a process since it appears they can only be restored to their original vault/categories. The issue became finding them if I did that. I read this post https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/70813/moving-items-out-of-the-trash but Export wouldn't work for Trashed items. My next thought was to tag them before the restore, but a new tag cannot be created directly; only by typing the new tag name into the Tags field in an item, except that can't be done for an item in the Trash. Ultimately, I got them moved to a new account based "Archived Items" vault by creating an new Test item and Trash tag, selecting all Trash items, dragging them to the new tag, restoring them, finding them via the tag and then transferring them to the new Archive vault. Did I miss an easier way to get this done?

    There isn't an easier way. Again, this is a really interesting example. I think that ultimately we need to have an advanced migration option, where you can select a source and destination vault, and 1Password would handle the rest. That still doesn't cover everyone, but I think it would help a lot.

    Yes, I was aware of that. One "feature" of that I don't like is that doing so changes the name of the added document by appending the name of the item to which it was added. That creates some really long names, isn't appropriate if a document gets linked to more than one item, and feels like a crude workaround for not having bi-directional links.

    Hmm. I think it's useful since it makes both easy to find together, but that's something we can evaluate. Thank you!

    I believe a much better modification would be automatically adding a link in the document item to the item to which it was attached by Add New File without changing the Document name itself. That might not be a true bi-directional link but sure seems like it would get the job done in that the relationship between the document and item would be clear regardless of which of the two you are viewing and it would be easy to move between them.
    Granted, taking advantage of documents' expanded flexibility by linking a document to multiple items increases complexity no matter how it's done; however, given that it is something that AgileBits is highlighting as an advantage of accounts, it needs to be easier to manage than it is currently. Bi-directional links, or at least automatically creating two uni-directional links, in each item involved in the linking process would appear to address some of the complexity.

    Honestly, I don't think most people are using links as extensively as you seem to be. I'm not sure if that's the chicken or the egg: do most people just not want to use 1Password this way, or do they not because it's still fairly rudimentary in this area? I just don't know.

    Being on the cutting edge, you're bound to get some scrapes. But I really appreciate you sharing your experience so we can improve this for everyone. Links are awesome, but we've only scratched the surface. There's a lot more we can do with them. It's no fun when you view a linked item and just cannot go back. It's even less fun if you view the wrong linked item and immediately want to go back to select a different one. I like what you're trying to do here, and I'm sorry we can't yet accommodate you very well. I'll bring this up with the team though so we can improve things in the future.

    What's interesting to me is that there are a few different layers to this: from migration through to navigating between items you've migrated. I really appreciate you sharing the details, as that can help us brainstorm to come up with a solution that can help not only you but also others as well. Cheers! :)

    ref: apple-737, apple-738

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    I had this whole thing written up and I don't know what happened. And, at that point, when you asked what was going on, I was about ready to pass out. So I wanted to rest and take the time to give you a proper response today. Thanks for your patience. :blush:

    @brenty No problem at all. I figured you were catching up from the weekend or as is sometimes said "trying to take a sip of water out of a fire hydrant". I'd much rather receive a slower more thoughtful response than a fast perfunctory one, so thanks.

    Honestly, I don't think most people are using links as extensively as you seem to be. I'm not sure if that's the chicken or the egg: do most people just not want to use 1Password this way, or do they not because it's still fairly rudimentary in this area? I just don't know.

    ...and truthfully, having just migrated, I'm not using them all that extensively, at least yet, either. This whole thought exercise started with the one-way link creation when migrating and I clearly chased it down the proverbial rabbit hole something like this:

    1. Hmm. Once I click on the Related Link in an item to see the linked document, how do I get back without searching/filtering/remembering; perhaps using the appended name change as a hint, so to speak. Search forum. Others have this same issue...
    2. If 1pw is going to append a hint to the linked item to the name of an added document as a rudimentary pointer, why not just create a one way link in the opposite direction instead? Possible enhancement/partial solution to a true bi-directional link?
    3. What happens here if someone takes advantage of the new flexibility in documents to link multiple places? Interesting possibilities here but you would need to be careful and disciplined in the creation of links in both the document itself and the related item to keep them all straight.
    4. Oops. If one does this, replacing/updating a document (as a number of documents may require on a regular basis) becomes a messy involved process since all links would need to be recreated each time since the replacement document currently gets uploaded with a new UUID as though it's brand new.
    5. Why can't the underlying file in a document just be replaced without changing the UUID? It seems there must still be some underlying process to connect the uploaded file to the 1pw Document Item that's not unlike the current ability to replace the attachment in an item using standalone vaults. This would both retain the new flexibility in Documents and allow easy updating.

    So, when I boil all this down, I personally would love to see the following two enhancements to Documents in memberships:

    1. When uploading a new file, create a link in each direction (doesn't have to be a true bi-directional link) vs fiddling with the uploaded document's name in order to support the more general case and AgileBits' highlighted accounts feature of linking the document multiple places; and
    2. Provide a feature to replace/update (with an identical file type) the underlying file in the Document container rather than requiring an update to be a new unrelated document. This would save a lot of old document deletion and new link creation (whether one or several), and the attendant potential errors, just to update something.

    You didn't address this second request in your reply, but thanks for listening. I hope AgileBits will give serious consideration to these, or perhaps brainstorm better, solutions & enhancements to Documents.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    This whole thought exercise started with the one-way link creation when migrating

    @oshloel: Ah, yes, that makes perfect sense. I think that's a good summary, because it illustrates the challenges both to users and from a design/development perspective. There are a lot of considerations involving migration and linking, and quickly things snowball. So we want to be cautious when introducing new possibilities since they all have interactions with each other, many of which are not immediately obvious.

    Without getting too much into the weeds here, Universally Unique IDentifiers really need to be unique, especially since 1Password.com accounts have to keep each item around for a time in case you want to restore it. The UUID ensures that the old item isn't wiped out by the new one you add, regardless of the type.

    When uploading a new file, create a link in each direction (doesn't have to be a true bi-directional link) vs fiddling with the uploaded document's name in order to support the more general case and AgileBits' highlighted accounts feature of linking the document multiple places; and

    We'd definitely like to do something similar to this. Thanks again for providing such extensive feedback!

    Provide a feature to replace/update (with an identical file type) the underlying file in the Document container rather than requiring an update to be a new unrelated document. This would save a lot of old document deletion and new link creation (whether one or several), and the attendant potential errors, just to update something.

    I understand why this could be desirable, so it's something we'll continue to evaluate. We just want to make sure that we don't make 1Password too complex for it to be a good experience for everyone. No one should have to worry about losing data when they make a change in their account.

  • cruise2001
    cruise2001
    Community Member

    I would like to add to this feature request. As I use the "Documents" category to store my insurance policies, it would be useful to simply change the "embedded" document instead of adding a new entry, and re-entering the fields for the Document.

  • Ben
    Ben
    edited May 2018

    Hi @cruise2001

    This is possible currently using the 1Password.com web interface. Edit the item in question and then use the “Drag File to Upload or click here” option to replace the file that is part of the Document item.

    I hope that helps!

    Ben

    ref: apple-1079

  • cruise2001
    cruise2001
    Community Member

    Thanks! This is very useful. I'll try it.

  • :+1: :)

    Ben

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    @Ben This is great! Is it a new feature on the website since Brenty and I had our exchange a couple weeks ago? He didn't mention it as a way to achieve replacement of document without losing existing links. Glad I stopped back by the forums and saw this note!

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @oshloel: I think there may be a misunderstanding, and I don't want to oversell it. There isn't a way to "replace" links. Ben is just saying you can upload new Documents or add additional links to an item. That's definitely not a new feature. Does that help clarify? :)

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    @brenty Thanks. I tested this yesterday and what I found was that by using the online web interface, I could replace a Document's underlying attachment/file (a pdf in my test) with an updated version without disturbing existing links or needing to delete the Document itself and replace it with a new Document. That capability was what I was hoping for in the last item of our April 17/18 exchange.

    If I click Edit on the 1PW6 Mac app, my only option on the underlying file itself is "Click to View". If I click Edit on the same Document in the web interface, the "Click to Download" changes to "Drag File to Upload or Click Here". It appears to work fine to replace the underlying file, but I may be missing something. If I'm not, don't change anything!!!

  • Thanks. I tested this yesterday and what I found was that by using the online web interface, I could replace a Document's underlying attachment/file (a pdf in my test) with an updated version without disturbing existing links or needing to delete the Document itself and replace it with a new Document. That capability was what I was hoping for in the last item of our April 17/18 exchange.

    That has been my experience as well. I’m not entirely sure if that is an intentional feature or a side-effect, but that is how it currently works in the web interface.

    If I click Edit on the 1PW6 Mac app, my only option on the underlying file itself is "Click to View". If I click Edit on the same Document in the web interface, the "Click to Download" changes to "Drag File to Upload or Click Here". It appears to work fine to replace the underlying file, but I may be missing something. If I'm not, don't change anything!!!

    I’ll check with development and see what the intention here is. Thanks. :)

    Ben

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    @Ben Consider it a valuable feature, not a bug, document it as a feature and leave it working as it is in the web interface! That is unless they want to make it work that way in the Mac app also. Being able to update a Document's associated file without having to delete, re-create and re-establish links is very worthwhile for Documents that periodically renew.

  • I personally agree, and have used it for that purpose as well. :)

    Ben

  • I just confirmed with development that the web app is working as expected. Hopefully we can get this functionality into our Mac and iOS apps in the future. :+1:

    Ben

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @oshloel: Also, the misunderstanding was my fault. I was focusing on the links rather than the Documents. Glad Ben was able to clear things up — for me as well! :lol:

  • oshloel
    oshloel
    Community Member

    All's well that ends well! :)

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    :) :+1:

  • bruce_menzel
    bruce_menzel
    Community Member

    Hi, I was wondering if any progress had been made to make the 1password.com feature that @Ben, @brenty, and @oshloel were discussing available in 1Password for Mac (i.e., the ability to replace a document with an updated version without having to delete/trash the original version and that keeps the links, etc)? Thanks!

  • Nothing to report at this time.

    Ben

This discussion has been closed.